4 ms·

"It's renewable therefore I can waste as much of it as I want."

by lwansbrough 6y ago

SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
It's the ultimate in handwaveism.
hparadiz 6y ago
It's true though. You can throw up a 1kw system for under 1k now.
- maccam94 6y ago
  It still generates heat, which warms the planet.
  - gonzo41 6y ago
    ummm,
  - gruez 6y ago
    Is heat generated by humans really a significant contributor to global warming compared to the warming effects of human generated greenhouse gases?
    - grozzle 6y ago
      It isn't. Anthropogenic heat is about 1% as strong as the greenhouse effect, according to this article in Nature. https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2017116 https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2017116
    - rebuilder 6y ago
      Not yet. Assuming continuous growth, it would be sooner than you might think: https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ Of course that's more an illustration of why continuous growth is impossible than a prediction of what will happen.
  - AYBABTME 6y ago
    The sun generates heat when it lands on the ground. One could say PV helps keep the ground cool! Haven't done any math either ways, but it's not like sunlight doesn't already heat up the planet.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    https://www.treehugger.com/ask-pablo-do-solar-panels-contribute-to-the-heat-island-effect-4857811 https://www.treehugger.com/ask-pablo-do-solar-panels-contrib... "Cities and their expansive hardscapes are certainly to blame for the heat island effect and, since the hardscapes and solar energy-absorbing roofs are already there, solar panels may actually represent a reduction in heat absorbtion. Add to that the fact that solar panels produce renewable energy that does not contribute to climate change like conventional sources like coal. Adding to that, the soot particles in the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels contribute a radiative forcing of 0.1 to 0.4 W/m2. Solar panels, on the other hand, are reducing the amount of climate change-causing emissions. "So if you're wondering about the heat island effect before installing rooftop solar, don't. According to the numbers, the solar panels will not only produce energy, but keep your home slightly cooler, which means you'll be using less energy in the first place, which will keep us all a little cooler."
    - maccam94 6y ago
      Sorry, the "it" I was referring to was mining hardware, not solar generation. Crypto-mining, if it continues to grow unabated, at some point will start to increase the price of energy and encourage more energy production. Some of that might be somewhat neutral solar, but using basically any other energy source would increase thermal energy being generated.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Maybe at the hobby level that thinking works. At scale, though, it does not unless you're building a renewable power plant where it simply can't connect to the grid. If you can get on the grid, then the power your plant produces and what you do with it are two separate things. Instead of e.g. mining crypto, you could sell the power generated. By using it instead of selling it, you're just pushing other users to use more fossil fuels. The calculus IMO is power consumption * grid-wide average CO2 emissions. You can't just count using solar as 0 emissions, because using solar doesn't bring that average to 0. It reduces it slightly.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >The calculus IMO is power consumption * grid-wide average CO2 emissions. This is also too simplified, because it doesn't factor in transmission costs and interconnection capacity. Electricty doesn't move frictionlessly throughout the grid, and this can be seen because north american electricity prices vary wildly by region[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26829186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26829186
    - caf 6y ago
      Yes, and it also doesn't take into account the time of use. There are times when renewables have to be curtailed in some regions, so using renewable sources at that time has a marginal CO2 impact of near zero.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  Miners aren't building their own solar arrays right now and even if they were until we're throwing away wind or solar power constantly any energy burned to work on a coin is energy that could have just gone into serving existing loads.
elil17 6y ago
Exactly. If you're on grid, unless and limiting yourself to times when there's a surplus, every KW of clean electricity you use is a KW of dirty, natural gas or coal peaker plant electricity someone else has to use. If you've got an off-grid solar set up, you're just bidding up the price of PV panels.
- graiz 6y ago
  As the volume of panels has gone up over the last decade, the he price of panels has also gone down as production scales and efficiencies improve. You would need enough demand to create a global shortage. That doesn't seem likely and would cause a short-term spike, not a long term price increase.
  - elil17 6y ago
    I would agree except for the fact that PV panels use rare earth metals and other natural resources

"It's renewable therefore I can waste as much of it as I want."

SwimSwimHungry 6y ago

It's the ultimate in handwaveism.

hparadiz 6y ago

It's true though. You can throw up a 1kw system for under 1k now.

maccam94 6y ago
It still generates heat, which warms the planet.
- gonzo41 6y ago
  ummm,
- gruez 6y ago
  Is heat generated by humans really a significant contributor to global warming compared to the warming effects of human generated greenhouse gases?
  - grozzle 6y ago
    It isn't. Anthropogenic heat is about 1% as strong as the greenhouse effect, according to this article in Nature. https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2017116 https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2017116
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    Not yet. Assuming continuous growth, it would be sooner than you might think: https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ Of course that's more an illustration of why continuous growth is impossible than a prediction of what will happen.
- AYBABTME 6y ago
  The sun generates heat when it lands on the ground. One could say PV helps keep the ground cool! Haven't done any math either ways, but it's not like sunlight doesn't already heat up the planet.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  https://www.treehugger.com/ask-pablo-do-solar-panels-contribute-to-the-heat-island-effect-4857811 https://www.treehugger.com/ask-pablo-do-solar-panels-contrib... "Cities and their expansive hardscapes are certainly to blame for the heat island effect and, since the hardscapes and solar energy-absorbing roofs are already there, solar panels may actually represent a reduction in heat absorbtion. Add to that the fact that solar panels produce renewable energy that does not contribute to climate change like conventional sources like coal. Adding to that, the soot particles in the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels contribute a radiative forcing of 0.1 to 0.4 W/m2. Solar panels, on the other hand, are reducing the amount of climate change-causing emissions. "So if you're wondering about the heat island effect before installing rooftop solar, don't. According to the numbers, the solar panels will not only produce energy, but keep your home slightly cooler, which means you'll be using less energy in the first place, which will keep us all a little cooler."
  - maccam94 6y ago
    Sorry, the "it" I was referring to was mining hardware, not solar generation. Crypto-mining, if it continues to grow unabated, at some point will start to increase the price of energy and encourage more energy production. Some of that might be somewhat neutral solar, but using basically any other energy source would increase thermal energy being generated.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rebuilder 6y ago
Maybe at the hobby level that thinking works. At scale, though, it does not unless you're building a renewable power plant where it simply can't connect to the grid. If you can get on the grid, then the power your plant produces and what you do with it are two separate things. Instead of e.g. mining crypto, you could sell the power generated. By using it instead of selling it, you're just pushing other users to use more fossil fuels. The calculus IMO is power consumption * grid-wide average CO2 emissions. You can't just count using solar as 0 emissions, because using solar doesn't bring that average to 0. It reduces it slightly.
- gruez 6y ago
  >The calculus IMO is power consumption * grid-wide average CO2 emissions. This is also too simplified, because it doesn't factor in transmission costs and interconnection capacity. Electricty doesn't move frictionlessly throughout the grid, and this can be seen because north american electricity prices vary wildly by region[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26829186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26829186
  - caf 6y ago
    Yes, and it also doesn't take into account the time of use. There are times when renewables have to be curtailed in some regions, so using renewable sources at that time has a marginal CO2 impact of near zero.
rtkwe 6y ago
Miners aren't building their own solar arrays right now and even if they were until we're throwing away wind or solar power constantly any energy burned to work on a coin is energy that could have just gone into serving existing loads.

elil17 6y ago

Exactly. If you're on grid, unless and limiting yourself to times when there's a surplus, every KW of clean electricity you use is a KW of dirty, natural gas or coal peaker plant electricity someone else has to use. If you've got an off-grid solar set up, you're just bidding up the price of PV panels.

graiz 6y ago
As the volume of panels has gone up over the last decade, the he price of panels has also gone down as production scales and efficiencies improve. You would need enough demand to create a global shortage. That doesn't seem likely and would cause a short-term spike, not a long term price increase.
- elil17 6y ago
  I would agree except for the fact that PV panels use rare earth metals and other natural resources