7 ms·

I’m sure Seattle will try to do this, even though I wish they wouldn’t. Seattle’s utility companies, owned by the city, are poorly managed and keep having budg

I’m sure Seattle will try to do this, even though I wish they wouldn’t. Seattle’s utility companies, owned by the city, are poorly managed and keep having budget shortfalls despite charging very high rates for services. Electricity costs, for example, are growing at several multiples of inflation. Despite having more access to fresh water than just about any US city not on the Great Lakes, our water and sewage rates are higher than desert cities like Vegas and LA. Who knows where all the money goes? I know one individual personally that was paid a six-figure salary by the electric utility to study how the utility grid was systemically racist. Best I can tell he wrote some emails and made a few presentations and that’s about it. We also have one of the most expensive sewage treatment plants on Earth, which has a museum and wedding / event space for some reason. We spent more on that than Dubai spent on the Burj Khalifa. Maybe that’s why there’s a budget shortfall.

walrus01 6y ago
I can think of a lot of places in WA that need this more urgently than within the city limits of Seattle, however... Seattle itself is fairly well covered by a combination of centurylink, wave and comcast, depending on the exact location. Big chunks of single family detached housing in Seattle where the centurylink copper cables were >90% aerial have now been overbuilt with gigabit class GPON. In addition to the gigabit MDU/apartment services on offer from wave and competitors.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Olympia. State Capital. You have Comcast. And Centurylink will give you up to 8mbps in many places. Oof.
divbzero 6y ago
What doesn’t work in one place can work in others. As another comment describes [1] several Washington counties along the Columbia River Valley have gigabit fiber built out by public utility districts. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828097
- walrus01 6y ago
  The big thing that differentiates those counties is they already operate the last mile electrical grid as a PUD (public utility district). So they already have bucket trucks, crews of linemen, flaggers, reel trailers, other aerial fiber/cable construction resources on staff and trained. Other parts of WA state have privately owned last mile grid operators like Puget power and Avista. Washington state viewed from a whole-state colored map perspective is a wild patchwork quilt of different last mile telco operators (mostly centurylink or ziply now, but others exist, like how the ellensburg valley is neither), and mottled variety of different types of electrical grid operator. Or different types of combination aerial/underground cable operator (comcast or charter, mostly, but by no means all). It will be somewhat more time consuming, costly and difficulty for a county that is not also a PUD to set up their own fiber construction enterprise.
  - coryrc 6y ago
    Also, they generate way more electricity than they use, so they use the extra money selling it to subsidize local efforts.
  - mtnGoat 6y ago
    In chelan and Douglas counties, the PUD essentially owns the fiber networks as well as the power networks, but they are only allowed to sell power directly. For broadband I have to go through another provider, I’ve always thought this was silly. A few of those providers have done quite well financially, in leveraging this situation. All they do is customer service, and hook up from the pole to the house, and lease routers. the infrastructure investment was prepaid by the public.
    - CameronNemo 6y ago
      I don't see why that is such a terrible situation. Sure some providers are profiting off of people's naïveté, but other providers could easily undercut them with minimal investment. And let's face it, govt orgs have a bad reputation in the customer service area.
seibelj 6y ago
Similar great article on this about why building a subway in NYC is so expensive https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastructure-costs.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastruct... They will have multiple “studies” by politically connected firms that go straight in the trash as they have no value whatsoever (among many other scams). A friend of mine was interested in opening a coffee shop with a wine license in Boston near the common, and the consultant she hired said that the best way to make this happen was to hire this specific law firm at $1000 per hour, and all the permits would sail through committees. If she hired any other firm it would be delayed, and delayed, put on extra reviews, cost her more and take years to complete. Corruption in a less overt way. Big government types have their heart in the right place, but the reality of human nature and the dirty business of politics is why we can’t have nice things. Some people in government are good, but those that seek and gain power are not the type of people you want guarding our treasury. It’s a tale as old as civilization and it never changes.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  This sounds a lot like what’s happening in Seattle. There was a recent controversy with the “Black Brilliance Project” (https://sccinsight.com/2021/03/08/black-brilliance-research-project-wraps-up-with-allegations-recriminations-but-no-city-investigation/ https://sccinsight.com/2021/03/08/black-brilliance-research-...) that seems to have been just blatant corruption that took advantage of the ongoing Black Lives Matter movement. A bit further back, the city has been giving away taxpayer owned property to favored nonprofits instead of selling them (https://durkan.seattle.gov/2020/11/mayor-durkan-applauds-city-councils-vote-to-transfer-the-central-area-senior-center-and-fire-station-6-to-black-led-community-organizations/ https://durkan.seattle.gov/2020/11/mayor-durkan-applauds-cit...), and justifying it using vague progressive justifications. If you go back further there are examples of corruption in the city’s “homeless-industrial complex” (https://roominate.com/blog/2016/anatomy-of-a-swindle/ https://roominate.com/blog/2016/anatomy-of-a-swindle/).
- perl4ever 6y ago
  What I have seen in government is that there are lots of constraints laid down by politicians that are ill-considered, and the bureaucrats work around them such that in practice, things function more like a private business. How do you know the consultant wasn't lying in order to get business for the law firm?
throwawaysea 6y ago
Totally agree with this characterization. Everything is immensely well funded and completely unimpressive for a city with this kind of budget. Whether it is massive utility bills or shocking costs for bike lanes in the millions per mile, it seems they simply can’t manage funds responsibly and yet complain that they are owed more in taxes from “the rich”. Even the city’s vaccination efforts have been focused on “systemic racism” and “equity”. Apparently their vaccine list prioritizes zipcodes with higher representation of races they deem disadvantaged. Many people sat in the Seattle queue with no notifications coming their way before finally finding out about this insanity and seeking vaccinations through other means. The sewage treatment plant you reference is also not even doing its job. Every year it leaks millions of gallons of raw untreated sewage into the Puget Sound (example https://www.king5.com/article/news/3-million-gallons-of-sewage-spilled-into-puget-sound-closes-several-seattle-beaches/281-3e9b1b8e-a837-4723-8ed7-0cab9d846970 https://www.king5.com/article/news/3-million-gallons-of-sewa...). For a city so focused on the environment they only seem to pay lip service to it, as both water bodies and parks (from drug addicted vagrants) are polluted. The internet service here is fine and the costs are less enraging than city utility bills. Personally I don’t want a public run alternative to kill the acceptable service I get now. At worst I would be worried that Seattle would censor the content accessible via a public internet service given the city leadership’s politics.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Can you buy 20Mbit service for $20? Municipal ISPs are the only hope to break the price fixing of the incumbents.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    I just checked and Comcast provides 25 Mbps service here for $20/month. There’s a large number of tiers going up to 1000 Mbps at $85/month, and an even pricier 2000 Mbps option. Other providers are available including CenturyLink, who offers 100 Mbps for $50/month and 1000 Mbps for $65/month.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
extrapickles 6y ago
If you are in one of the suburbs of Seattle, you pay even more for utilities, so they can’t be more wasteful than average (or at least in the greater Seattle area). There are a lot of games played with utility rates (eg: have taxpayers on the hook for infrastructure rather than ratepayers), so it’s hard to compare across regions and correctly account for the true cost.
coryrc 6y ago
Seattle had a municipal broadband program, but, unsurprisingly, was uncompetitive. I think the water and electricity utility inefficiency is more state issues than city. The money is being spent on fish rights, tribal obligations, getting the last 1% of sewage spill (when the counties across the sound have broken septic flowing constantly) etc. These are hitting the other dam owners too. You can see some budget breakdown here: http://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/service/Utilities+%2526+Transportation/0/department http://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/servi...
- coryrc 6y ago
  Oh, don't forget the billions spent on that last bit of sewage while allowing open defecation in parks and on roadways.
  - neolog 6y ago
    "Allowing" is the wrong word. It's more like requiring, since there aren't any public toilets.
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      Starbucks is the national public toilet infrastructure, as admitted by their Executive Chairman, Howard Schultz: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/11/610337214/starbucks-will-give-people-the-key-to-restroom-regardless-of-purchase-ceo-says https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/11/610337214... :)
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Where can I read about Seattle's municipal broadband program? The city only mentions a fiber network for city agencies, lots of studies, and corporate initiatives.[1] [1] http://www.seattle.gov/tech/initiatives/broadband/studies-and-history http://www.seattle.gov/tech/initiatives/broadband/studies-an...
  - nostromo 6y ago
jorblumesea 6y ago
Seattle has pretty decent utilities, although not perfect by any means. I feel like it's the most Seattle comment to talk about how terrible things are here never having lived in any other major US city.
- winstonchecksin 6y ago
  Seattle has a lot of unnecessary problems and the government is convinced the only solution is more taxes. I’ve seen this city regressive massively in the past 10 years. I honestly have no idea what they do with public money. The council members have openly called for nationalizing big companies and adopting a communist model - something my immigrant parents fled from.
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    Seattle has one of the best mass transit systems I've seen for the size, it has a very walkable and livable city, tons of parks, and very good government transparency. This is what I'm saying, people hate on this city but if you've ever lived in LA, Chicago, NYC...oh boy are you in for a shock if you're not a fan of "I honestly have no idea what they do with public money." Please, move to Chicago then come back to this thread.
    - bfrog 6y ago
      Oh we know where the money goes here, it's just ridiculous. Pensions and under table deals that make politicians and their friends wealthy. Want to get something done? Bribe, I mean contribute, to the local alderman.
    - winstonchecksin 6y ago
      I haven’t lived in LA, Chicago, or NY. But please help me understand — why does another city being worse off (whether that’s true or not is besides the point) makes it okay for Seattle to regress? And why would I move from my city to Chicago? I was born here and lived here my whole life. Chicago is worse so I should be thankful it’s not as bad as Chicago? I mean, should I be happy it’s not as bad in Seattle as Mexico City, or the pollution isn’t as bad as New Delhi? I’m genuinely interested in where you’re going with this. Quite frankly Seattle is quickly fading from being a livable city. My children go to a school that has homeless people shooting up heroine and throwing needles on the school grounds. But sure, Chicago is worse in your opinion, and so I should pay taxes to city of Seattle while law enforcement becomes a joke.
eganist 6y ago
> I know one individual personally that was paid a six-figure salary by the electric utility to study how the utility grid was systemically racist. Best I can tell he wrote some emails and made a few presentations and that’s about it. That salary was paid to discover (and make discoverable in the event of a suit, useful for making sure no one sits on the data) the specifics around systemic racism in the utility in order to improve the diversity of both representation and opinions in order to strengthen financial performance (https://www.catalyst.org/research/why-diversity-and-inclusion-matter-financial-performance/ https://www.catalyst.org/research/why-diversity-and-inclusio...). It's an investment with commonly solid returns for businesses struggling with inclusion challenges, but more importantly, dismissing the money spent on raising the bar on equality in the workplace is something I think many minority participants on HN abhor but are afraid of speaking against because majority participants are quick to express opinions like this as if they're factually correct.
- tediousdemise 6y ago
  I think you are missing the main point of the original comment, using it as an opportunity to virtue signal about systemic racism. A six-figure salary to study whether the electric grid is racist is absolutely excessive, but it’s just a small detail of the overall fraud, waste, and abuse that drives the exorbitant utility prices in Seattle.
  - ruined 6y ago
    i'm sure the salary was paid according to the employer's desire for the labor to be done, and the available supply of that kind of labor in the market
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      Why are you so sure of that?
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    The original comment seemed to imply that a tiny portion of the budget apparently spent on investigating systemic racism is a larger systemic problem than, well, any other systemic problems the city might have (including actual systemic racism).
hyperrail 6y ago
City governments have already been able to provide and sell Internet service - it is PUDs* that are banned from selling until and unless this bill is signed. And not only is the ban only on retail as opposed to wholesale service, there is also already a slight and temporary relaxation of the ban for coastal regions west of the Seattle area. [1] Since you're also a Seattle-area local, you might remember that Seattle tried to do a public-private partnership with a company called Gigabit Squared to run fiber into Seattleites' homes. That initiative failed in 2014 [2], but the Seattle City Council has always been able to reconsider, with or without this bill. * Public Utility Districts are special-purpose governments in Washington dedicated to being non-profit electric or water utilities, with limited tax powers (.045% property tax per year). Many counties have county-wide PUDs that are independent of the county government, such as Snohomish County PUD (Seattle's northern suburbs; no broadband offering) and Chelan County PUD (central Cascade mountains like Wenatchee and Leavenworth; does offer wholesale broadband). [1] https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=54.16.420 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=54.16.420 [2] https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2014/01/seattles-fiber-deal-with-gigabit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2014/01/s...
- dahfizz 6y ago
  I am curious: who operates the "publicly owned" networks? I think having having the government lay fiber while they are already doing work on the electric infrastructure is an obvious thing to do. But I would be extremely hesitant if the government is the one who owns and runs all the networking equipment (routers, switches, firewalls, etc).
WalterBright 6y ago
> sewage treatment plants on Earth, which has a museum and wedding / event space Why is that a problem? I always wanted to get married at a romantic sewage plant.
qaq 6y ago
Sounds like Atlas Shrugged
- croon 6y ago
  Yeah, it does sound like low tier fiction.
  - qaq 6y ago
    As someone who grew up in USSR it is actually pretty accurate description of what happened there. It seems some idealistic people want to try again.
sparrc 6y ago
I'm no fan of Seattle's government, but FWIW, I have lived in one of those Desert cities (San Diego). They have a sewage pipe that goes about 2.5 miles into the ocean [1] and spews out "lightly" treated sewage water. There is no secondary treatment, they even have a waiver to do this (I believe from the federal government or possibly state government) [2]. In Seattle, on the other hand, we are not allowed to dump water at that level of contamination into lake Washington or the Sound. It costs a LOT of money to do secondary treatment, and we are taking it even further by building a massive underground holding tank to make sure that we don't dump any overflow in the event of heavy rain. This is more than what is federally required, but in this instance I actually think the extra cost is worth it. [1] https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1989/sep/21/end-pipe/ https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1989/sep/21/end-pipe/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Loma_Wastewater_Treatment_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Loma_Wastewater_Treatmen... [3] https://www.surfrider.org/campaigns/san-diego-secondary-treatment-waiver https://www.surfrider.org/campaigns/san-diego-secondary-trea...
- deleted 6y ago
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Seattle3503 6y ago
Seattle has failed to modernize it water infrastructure. I spoke with an engineer that moved from SoCal, where they are constantly in drought, to Seattle and he said the difference in water management was night and day. In those dry areas they are efficient by necessity. Everything is networked, monitored, and automated. If something goes wrong they can turn water off and try to address it remotely. In Seattle they will send someone hours out to the site to turn a spigot. The younger people at the bottom know the system can be improved, but this is not encouraged. By younger I mean 10 years of experience. Those at the top have achieved sinecure through seniority and have no interest in rocking the boat. The good people eventually leave.
pseudalopex 6y ago
Seattle's electricity rates are 1/3 below the national average apparently.[1] The water and sewage rates are some of the highest. But they include infrastructure costs other cities pay with tax revenue.[2] King County commissioned the new plant. Seattle officials suggested taking less expensive steps first or building smaller plants.[3] I remember reading the local geology makes underground construction especially expensive. And probably you don't want to copy Dubai's working conditions. [1] https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/seattle/ https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/seattle/ [2] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/rain-soaked-seattle-has-nations-highest-water-bills/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/rain-soaked-s... [3] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/how-brightwater-soared-to-18-billion-8212-and-why-youre-paying-more/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/how-brightwater-so...
- nostromo 6y ago
  Those numbers are wrong. I don't know why -- they're probably just years out of date. https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/residential-services/billing-information/rates https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/residential-services/bill...
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    You're right. But Seattle's rates are 20% below to 4% above the national average still.[1] [1] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
GoodJokes 6y ago
I know a bunch of people on this board who straight up brag about getting paid six figures to do nothing. Best I can tell is you have very little real information about Seattle utilities.

walrus01 6y ago

I can think of a lot of places in WA that need this more urgently than within the city limits of Seattle, however... Seattle itself is fairly well covered by a combination of centurylink, wave and comcast, depending on the exact location. Big chunks of single family detached housing in Seattle where the centurylink copper cables were >90% aerial have now been overbuilt with gigabit class GPON. In addition to the gigabit MDU/apartment services on offer from wave and competitors.

FireBeyond 6y ago
Olympia. State Capital. You have Comcast. And Centurylink will give you up to 8mbps in many places. Oof.

divbzero 6y ago

What doesn’t work in one place can work in others. As another comment describes [1] several Washington counties along the Columbia River Valley have gigabit fiber built out by public utility districts. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828097

walrus01 6y ago
The big thing that differentiates those counties is they already operate the last mile electrical grid as a PUD (public utility district). So they already have bucket trucks, crews of linemen, flaggers, reel trailers, other aerial fiber/cable construction resources on staff and trained. Other parts of WA state have privately owned last mile grid operators like Puget power and Avista. Washington state viewed from a whole-state colored map perspective is a wild patchwork quilt of different last mile telco operators (mostly centurylink or ziply now, but others exist, like how the ellensburg valley is neither), and mottled variety of different types of electrical grid operator. Or different types of combination aerial/underground cable operator (comcast or charter, mostly, but by no means all). It will be somewhat more time consuming, costly and difficulty for a county that is not also a PUD to set up their own fiber construction enterprise.
- coryrc 6y ago
  Also, they generate way more electricity than they use, so they use the extra money selling it to subsidize local efforts.
- mtnGoat 6y ago
  In chelan and Douglas counties, the PUD essentially owns the fiber networks as well as the power networks, but they are only allowed to sell power directly. For broadband I have to go through another provider, I’ve always thought this was silly. A few of those providers have done quite well financially, in leveraging this situation. All they do is customer service, and hook up from the pole to the house, and lease routers. the infrastructure investment was prepaid by the public.
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    I don't see why that is such a terrible situation. Sure some providers are profiting off of people's naïveté, but other providers could easily undercut them with minimal investment. And let's face it, govt orgs have a bad reputation in the customer service area.

seibelj 6y ago

Similar great article on this about why building a subway in NYC is so expensive https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastructure-costs.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/new-york-infrastruct... They will have multiple “studies” by politically connected firms that go straight in the trash as they have no value whatsoever (among many other scams). A friend of mine was interested in opening a coffee shop with a wine license in Boston near the common, and the consultant she hired said that the best way to make this happen was to hire this specific law firm at $1000 per hour, and all the permits would sail through committees. If she hired any other firm it would be delayed, and delayed, put on extra reviews, cost her more and take years to complete. Corruption in a less overt way. Big government types have their heart in the right place, but the reality of human nature and the dirty business of politics is why we can’t have nice things. Some people in government are good, but those that seek and gain power are not the type of people you want guarding our treasury. It’s a tale as old as civilization and it never changes.

throwawaysea 6y ago
This sounds a lot like what’s happening in Seattle. There was a recent controversy with the “Black Brilliance Project” (https://sccinsight.com/2021/03/08/black-brilliance-research-project-wraps-up-with-allegations-recriminations-but-no-city-investigation/ https://sccinsight.com/2021/03/08/black-brilliance-research-...) that seems to have been just blatant corruption that took advantage of the ongoing Black Lives Matter movement. A bit further back, the city has been giving away taxpayer owned property to favored nonprofits instead of selling them (https://durkan.seattle.gov/2020/11/mayor-durkan-applauds-city-councils-vote-to-transfer-the-central-area-senior-center-and-fire-station-6-to-black-led-community-organizations/ https://durkan.seattle.gov/2020/11/mayor-durkan-applauds-cit...), and justifying it using vague progressive justifications. If you go back further there are examples of corruption in the city’s “homeless-industrial complex” (https://roominate.com/blog/2016/anatomy-of-a-swindle/ https://roominate.com/blog/2016/anatomy-of-a-swindle/).
perl4ever 6y ago
What I have seen in government is that there are lots of constraints laid down by politicians that are ill-considered, and the bureaucrats work around them such that in practice, things function more like a private business. How do you know the consultant wasn't lying in order to get business for the law firm?

throwawaysea 6y ago

Totally agree with this characterization. Everything is immensely well funded and completely unimpressive for a city with this kind of budget. Whether it is massive utility bills or shocking costs for bike lanes in the millions per mile, it seems they simply can’t manage funds responsibly and yet complain that they are owed more in taxes from “the rich”. Even the city’s vaccination efforts have been focused on “systemic racism” and “equity”. Apparently their vaccine list prioritizes zipcodes with higher representation of races they deem disadvantaged. Many people sat in the Seattle queue with no notifications coming their way before finally finding out about this insanity and seeking vaccinations through other means. The sewage treatment plant you reference is also not even doing its job. Every year it leaks millions of gallons of raw untreated sewage into the Puget Sound (example https://www.king5.com/article/news/3-million-gallons-of-sewage-spilled-into-puget-sound-closes-several-seattle-beaches/281-3e9b1b8e-a837-4723-8ed7-0cab9d846970 https://www.king5.com/article/news/3-million-gallons-of-sewa...). For a city so focused on the environment they only seem to pay lip service to it, as both water bodies and parks (from drug addicted vagrants) are polluted. The internet service here is fine and the costs are less enraging than city utility bills. Personally I don’t want a public run alternative to kill the acceptable service I get now. At worst I would be worried that Seattle would censor the content accessible via a public internet service given the city leadership’s politics.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Can you buy 20Mbit service for $20? Municipal ISPs are the only hope to break the price fixing of the incumbents.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  I just checked and Comcast provides 25 Mbps service here for $20/month. There’s a large number of tiers going up to 1000 Mbps at $85/month, and an even pricier 2000 Mbps option. Other providers are available including CenturyLink, who offers 100 Mbps for $50/month and 1000 Mbps for $65/month.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago

extrapickles 6y ago

If you are in one of the suburbs of Seattle, you pay even more for utilities, so they can’t be more wasteful than average (or at least in the greater Seattle area). There are a lot of games played with utility rates (eg: have taxpayers on the hook for infrastructure rather than ratepayers), so it’s hard to compare across regions and correctly account for the true cost.

coryrc 6y ago

Seattle had a municipal broadband program, but, unsurprisingly, was uncompetitive. I think the water and electricity utility inefficiency is more state issues than city. The money is being spent on fish rights, tribal obligations, getting the last 1% of sewage spill (when the counties across the sound have broken septic flowing constantly) etc. These are hitting the other dam owners too. You can see some budget breakdown here: http://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/service/Utilities+%2526+Transportation/0/department http://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/servi...

coryrc 6y ago
Oh, don't forget the billions spent on that last bit of sewage while allowing open defecation in parks and on roadways.
- neolog 6y ago
  "Allowing" is the wrong word. It's more like requiring, since there aren't any public toilets.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    Starbucks is the national public toilet infrastructure, as admitted by their Executive Chairman, Howard Schultz: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/11/610337214/starbucks-will-give-people-the-key-to-restroom-regardless-of-purchase-ceo-says https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/11/610337214... :)
pseudalopex 6y ago
Where can I read about Seattle's municipal broadband program? The city only mentions a fiber network for city agencies, lots of studies, and corporate initiatives.[1] [1] http://www.seattle.gov/tech/initiatives/broadband/studies-and-history http://www.seattle.gov/tech/initiatives/broadband/studies-an...
- nostromo 6y ago

jorblumesea 6y ago

Seattle has pretty decent utilities, although not perfect by any means. I feel like it's the most Seattle comment to talk about how terrible things are here never having lived in any other major US city.

winstonchecksin 6y ago
Seattle has a lot of unnecessary problems and the government is convinced the only solution is more taxes. I’ve seen this city regressive massively in the past 10 years. I honestly have no idea what they do with public money. The council members have openly called for nationalizing big companies and adopting a communist model - something my immigrant parents fled from.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  Seattle has one of the best mass transit systems I've seen for the size, it has a very walkable and livable city, tons of parks, and very good government transparency. This is what I'm saying, people hate on this city but if you've ever lived in LA, Chicago, NYC...oh boy are you in for a shock if you're not a fan of "I honestly have no idea what they do with public money." Please, move to Chicago then come back to this thread.
  - bfrog 6y ago
    Oh we know where the money goes here, it's just ridiculous. Pensions and under table deals that make politicians and their friends wealthy. Want to get something done? Bribe, I mean contribute, to the local alderman.
  - winstonchecksin 6y ago
    I haven’t lived in LA, Chicago, or NY. But please help me understand — why does another city being worse off (whether that’s true or not is besides the point) makes it okay for Seattle to regress? And why would I move from my city to Chicago? I was born here and lived here my whole life. Chicago is worse so I should be thankful it’s not as bad as Chicago? I mean, should I be happy it’s not as bad in Seattle as Mexico City, or the pollution isn’t as bad as New Delhi? I’m genuinely interested in where you’re going with this. Quite frankly Seattle is quickly fading from being a livable city. My children go to a school that has homeless people shooting up heroine and throwing needles on the school grounds. But sure, Chicago is worse in your opinion, and so I should pay taxes to city of Seattle while law enforcement becomes a joke.

eganist 6y ago

> I know one individual personally that was paid a six-figure salary by the electric utility to study how the utility grid was systemically racist. Best I can tell he wrote some emails and made a few presentations and that’s about it. That salary was paid to discover (and make discoverable in the event of a suit, useful for making sure no one sits on the data) the specifics around systemic racism in the utility in order to improve the diversity of both representation and opinions in order to strengthen financial performance (https://www.catalyst.org/research/why-diversity-and-inclusion-matter-financial-performance/ https://www.catalyst.org/research/why-diversity-and-inclusio...). It's an investment with commonly solid returns for businesses struggling with inclusion challenges, but more importantly, dismissing the money spent on raising the bar on equality in the workplace is something I think many minority participants on HN abhor but are afraid of speaking against because majority participants are quick to express opinions like this as if they're factually correct.

tediousdemise 6y ago
I think you are missing the main point of the original comment, using it as an opportunity to virtue signal about systemic racism. A six-figure salary to study whether the electric grid is racist is absolutely excessive, but it’s just a small detail of the overall fraud, waste, and abuse that drives the exorbitant utility prices in Seattle.
- ruined 6y ago
  i'm sure the salary was paid according to the employer's desire for the labor to be done, and the available supply of that kind of labor in the market
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    Why are you so sure of that?
- tshaddox 6y ago
  The original comment seemed to imply that a tiny portion of the budget apparently spent on investigating systemic racism is a larger systemic problem than, well, any other systemic problems the city might have (including actual systemic racism).

hyperrail 6y ago

City governments have already been able to provide and sell Internet service - it is PUDs* that are banned from selling until and unless this bill is signed. And not only is the ban only on retail as opposed to wholesale service, there is also already a slight and temporary relaxation of the ban for coastal regions west of the Seattle area. [1] Since you're also a Seattle-area local, you might remember that Seattle tried to do a public-private partnership with a company called Gigabit Squared to run fiber into Seattleites' homes. That initiative failed in 2014 [2], but the Seattle City Council has always been able to reconsider, with or without this bill. * Public Utility Districts are special-purpose governments in Washington dedicated to being non-profit electric or water utilities, with limited tax powers (.045% property tax per year). Many counties have county-wide PUDs that are independent of the county government, such as Snohomish County PUD (Seattle's northern suburbs; no broadband offering) and Chelan County PUD (central Cascade mountains like Wenatchee and Leavenworth; does offer wholesale broadband). [1] https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=54.16.420 https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=54.16.420 [2] https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2014/01/seattles-fiber-deal-with-gigabit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2014/01/s...

dahfizz 6y ago
I am curious: who operates the "publicly owned" networks? I think having having the government lay fiber while they are already doing work on the electric infrastructure is an obvious thing to do. But I would be extremely hesitant if the government is the one who owns and runs all the networking equipment (routers, switches, firewalls, etc).

WalterBright 6y ago

> sewage treatment plants on Earth, which has a museum and wedding / event space Why is that a problem? I always wanted to get married at a romantic sewage plant.

qaq 6y ago

Sounds like Atlas Shrugged

croon 6y ago
Yeah, it does sound like low tier fiction.
- qaq 6y ago
  As someone who grew up in USSR it is actually pretty accurate description of what happened there. It seems some idealistic people want to try again.

sparrc 6y ago

I'm no fan of Seattle's government, but FWIW, I have lived in one of those Desert cities (San Diego). They have a sewage pipe that goes about 2.5 miles into the ocean [1] and spews out "lightly" treated sewage water. There is no secondary treatment, they even have a waiver to do this (I believe from the federal government or possibly state government) [2]. In Seattle, on the other hand, we are not allowed to dump water at that level of contamination into lake Washington or the Sound. It costs a LOT of money to do secondary treatment, and we are taking it even further by building a massive underground holding tank to make sure that we don't dump any overflow in the event of heavy rain. This is more than what is federally required, but in this instance I actually think the extra cost is worth it. [1] https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1989/sep/21/end-pipe/ https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/1989/sep/21/end-pipe/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Loma_Wastewater_Treatment_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Loma_Wastewater_Treatmen... [3] https://www.surfrider.org/campaigns/san-diego-secondary-treatment-waiver https://www.surfrider.org/campaigns/san-diego-secondary-trea...

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Seattle3503 6y ago

Seattle has failed to modernize it water infrastructure. I spoke with an engineer that moved from SoCal, where they are constantly in drought, to Seattle and he said the difference in water management was night and day. In those dry areas they are efficient by necessity. Everything is networked, monitored, and automated. If something goes wrong they can turn water off and try to address it remotely. In Seattle they will send someone hours out to the site to turn a spigot. The younger people at the bottom know the system can be improved, but this is not encouraged. By younger I mean 10 years of experience. Those at the top have achieved sinecure through seniority and have no interest in rocking the boat. The good people eventually leave.

pseudalopex 6y ago

Seattle's electricity rates are 1/3 below the national average apparently.[1] The water and sewage rates are some of the highest. But they include infrastructure costs other cities pay with tax revenue.[2] King County commissioned the new plant. Seattle officials suggested taking less expensive steps first or building smaller plants.[3] I remember reading the local geology makes underground construction especially expensive. And probably you don't want to copy Dubai's working conditions. [1] https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/seattle/ https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/seattle/ [2] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/rain-soaked-seattle-has-nations-highest-water-bills/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/rain-soaked-s... [3] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/how-brightwater-soared-to-18-billion-8212-and-why-youre-paying-more/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/how-brightwater-so...

nostromo 6y ago
Those numbers are wrong. I don't know why -- they're probably just years out of date. https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/residential-services/billing-information/rates https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/residential-services/bill...
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  You're right. But Seattle's rates are 20% below to 4% above the national average still.[1] [1] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

GoodJokes 6y ago

I know a bunch of people on this board who straight up brag about getting paid six figures to do nothing. Best I can tell is you have very little real information about Seattle utilities.