9 ms·

I get the impression it is common for technically oriented people to think of salespeople, marketers, and recruiters as manipulative. In your view, what are so

by xpe 6y ago

I get the impression it is common for technically oriented people to think of salespeople, marketers, and recruiters as manipulative. In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation? I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.

Godel_unicode 6y ago
For me it's whether I believe that the person genuinely cares about the good of the person they're interacting with. Very, very few sales people will stop trying to sell you a thing just because they find out you don't need it. Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.
serverholic 6y ago
In this context, manipulation comes from a place of dishonest enthusiasm. Salespeople, marketers, and recruiters generally don't give two shits about the product they're selling. So yes it's manipulative because they're displaying fake enthusiasm and trying to trick you into thinking it's genuine.
kroltan 6y ago
Not who you asked, but for me persuasion is a manner of manipulation, trying to convince anyone of anything using anything but raw and complete information is manipulation. Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess. "Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such manipulation with the intent of personal or tribal benefit, which is what fits the people groups you mentioned above.
- vladTheInhaler 6y ago
  Of course everyone has an agenda. I think it crosses over into "manipulation" when you knowingly advance your own agenda at the other person's expense. For instance, suppose I have a wonderful product people would love to buy, if only they knew about it. I would argue that advertising it wouldn't be "manipulative" as it is commonly understood, even though I am doing it for selfish reasons. But if I knew that the product was dangerous, or fake, or otherwise harmful, then that becomes manipulative behavior.
xupybd 6y ago
Manipulation is when you lie to me. Persuasion is when you believe what you're telling me.
threatofrain 6y ago
My criteria is that there shouldn't be shame between us if we found out that we both attended the same metaphorical church, family and all.
muzani 6y ago
Manipulation is simply put, getting someone to do what they don't want to do. Actual persuasion is when you get them to want to do it. But a lot of forms of manipulation are disguised as persuasion - guilt, gaslighting, partial truth. A lot of "hustling" is manipulation too, they want to convince the higher up that they are willing to do anything for the job, despite not being the most qualified for it.
getoj 6y ago
"The scholar, having to encounter doubts and difficulties on all hands, [...] learns to take nothing for granted; least of all, to make an assumption of his own superior merits. [...] It takes years of patient toil and devoted enthusiasm to master any art or science; and after all, the success is doubtful. He infers that other triumphs must be prepared in like manner at an humble distance: he cannot conceive that any object worth seizing on or deserving of regard, can be carried by a coup de main. [...] It never once enters his head (till it is too late) that impudence is the current coin in the affairs of life; that he who doubts his own merit, never has credit given him by others; [...] that the world judge by appearances, not by realities; and that they sympathize more readily with those who are prompt to do themselves justice, and to show off their various qualifications or enforce their pretensions to the utmost. [...] He who has spent the best part of his time and wasted his best powers in endeavouring to answer the question -- 'What is truth?' -- scorns a lie, and every thing making the smallest approach to one. His mind by habit has become tenacious of, devoted to the truth." William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)
- Animats 6y ago
  William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827) That was before universities had PR departments.

by xpe 6y ago

Godel_unicode 6y ago

For me it's whether I believe that the person genuinely cares about the good of the person they're interacting with. Very, very few sales people will stop trying to sell you a thing just because they find out you don't need it. Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.

serverholic 6y ago

In this context, manipulation comes from a place of dishonest enthusiasm. Salespeople, marketers, and recruiters generally don't give two shits about the product they're selling. So yes it's manipulative because they're displaying fake enthusiasm and trying to trick you into thinking it's genuine.

kroltan 6y ago

Not who you asked, but for me persuasion is a manner of manipulation, trying to convince anyone of anything using anything but raw and complete information is manipulation. Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess. "Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such manipulation with the intent of personal or tribal benefit, which is what fits the people groups you mentioned above.

vladTheInhaler 6y ago
Of course everyone has an agenda. I think it crosses over into "manipulation" when you knowingly advance your own agenda at the other person's expense. For instance, suppose I have a wonderful product people would love to buy, if only they knew about it. I would argue that advertising it wouldn't be "manipulative" as it is commonly understood, even though I am doing it for selfish reasons. But if I knew that the product was dangerous, or fake, or otherwise harmful, then that becomes manipulative behavior.

xupybd 6y ago

Manipulation is when you lie to me. Persuasion is when you believe what you're telling me.

threatofrain 6y ago

My criteria is that there shouldn't be shame between us if we found out that we both attended the same metaphorical church, family and all.

muzani 6y ago

Manipulation is simply put, getting someone to do what they don't want to do. Actual persuasion is when you get them to want to do it. But a lot of forms of manipulation are disguised as persuasion - guilt, gaslighting, partial truth. A lot of "hustling" is manipulation too, they want to convince the higher up that they are willing to do anything for the job, despite not being the most qualified for it.

getoj 6y ago

"The scholar, having to encounter doubts and difficulties on all hands, [...] learns to take nothing for granted; least of all, to make an assumption of his own superior merits. [...] It takes years of patient toil and devoted enthusiasm to master any art or science; and after all, the success is doubtful. He infers that other triumphs must be prepared in like manner at an humble distance: he cannot conceive that any object worth seizing on or deserving of regard, can be carried by a coup de main. [...] It never once enters his head (till it is too late) that impudence is the current coin in the affairs of life; that he who doubts his own merit, never has credit given him by others; [...] that the world judge by appearances, not by realities; and that they sympathize more readily with those who are prompt to do themselves justice, and to show off their various qualifications or enforce their pretensions to the utmost. [...] He who has spent the best part of his time and wasted his best powers in endeavouring to answer the question -- 'What is truth?' -- scorns a lie, and every thing making the smallest approach to one. His mind by habit has become tenacious of, devoted to the truth." William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)

Animats 6y ago
William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827) That was before universities had PR departments.