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My problem with every single.elder scroll game kind of ends up boiling down to, why am I doing any of this. Skyrim was the worst of this for me. Every dungeon f

My problem with every single.elder scroll game kind of ends up boiling down to, why am I doing any of this. Skyrim was the worst of this for me. Every dungeon followed the same pattern and featured a convenient shortcut back to the beginning at the end and inevitably nothing you ever find is worth it. Oblivion's level scaling made nothing you found or did worth it at all. Morrowind was very large and pretty and fairly amazing for its time, but its world is empty and pointless. I dunno, somewhere along the way, developers seem to forget, sure we could add every single random real world item to every random house and sure it's realistic, but it's not fun. Finding piles of dishes and foodstuffs, exploring random building after random building to find.essentially nothing that adds to the game, go through lousy generic quests that add essentially nothing to the game and basically... I dunno, last time I played oblivion I played as a naked punching cat, because why not nothing you do matters anyway. And sure enough, the gameplay experience was about the same as when I actually tried playing the game properly.

meristohm 6y ago
When I was into Morrowind I already had about ten years of practice escaping into fantasy worlds via books and games. After listening to The Blindboy Podcast (after art and history, one theme is mental health) since mid-2020 and practicing cognitive behavior therapy to make more time to act between stimulus and (too-often-harmful) response, I no longer feel compelled to escape into games. Perhaps all those hours I spent exploring imaginary spaces helped in some way (I am much more grateful to authors of books, because they helped me develop visualization) and I try not to sink into regret. Having a child was a major contributor to growing up, too, perhaps the top; now I’m more adult and I get to freely enjoy childhood activities again with less risk of dependence. My point is: it’s okay to grow out of things and move on.
- grawprog 6y ago
  I do get that and I find my ability to escape into fantasy has dwindled in recent years, but I played morrowind at the time when I still read plenty of long winded fantasy books and the other games actually helped lead to my decline in enjoying fantasy. To counter that. I recently for the first time played dark souls and a couple years back played hollow Knight. I was able to immerse myself into both games because, every single thing you do and find has a point. Nothing really wastes your time. There's a reason for doing everything in those games. The things you find are worth it and rewarding. Exploring is worth it and rewarding. I never once really got that feeling from the elder scrolls games, or open world games in general. They have many, many things to do and find, but none of them feel satisfying. I prefer games with less things, but each thing feels worthwhile and meaningful. I'd rather find one awesome cool thing that changes the way I play the game or gives me something cool and new for my player over 20 Rusty forks and some apples any day.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    > They have many, many things to do and find, but none of them feel satisfying. I’m usually downvoted to oblivion (pun intended) on Reddit for saying: I didn’t like Breath of the Wild for this reason. Empty world, no real rewards, infuriating weapon system, lack of scenario, no memorable music.
    - grawprog 6y ago
      Yeah. Breath of the wild seems the same way. I've never played it but i watched my old roommate play it. Its focus on exploration was cool, but it missed that thing that made zelda 1 fun.(apparently this was the inspiration for breath of the wild) Zelda 1 was pretty open ended, but again, all the things you found were useful, sure you could do the dungeons in a variety of orders and go wherever, but that's not what made it fun, what made it fun was that you could do that and that all those dungeons had one cool, useful, gamechanging thing to find. BoTW gave you all the game changing stuff at the beginning and said here...here's a world, ganon's over there, you probably can't get him now, but just wander around long enough and you can, or know what you're doing and you can. In theory that seems fun, but the lack of structure and progression kills it. That's what made zelda so great to begin with.
  - Tarsul 6y ago
    I appreciate your comment. In my childhood open world games were - at least in my mind - the non-plus-ultra because the possibilites appeared to be endless. Nonetheless, you are right: Too often those possibilites are trite. I dislike Skyrim and Oblivion for those same reasons but for Morrowind I have a place in my heart because it really felt like you were exploring the world by yourself (not following your quest marker) and the rewards you could get were not just defined by its loot system but designed (so that you could get a really great sword relatively early if you found your way there), but you are right in that the world is rather empty and can be boring for some players like you. Actually, what has not been topped for me personally are 2 games: Might&Magic4+5 (you could play them as a combo-game, changing worlds!) and Fallout 2 because in both those cases the worlds were massive and you could go wherever you wanted to but still had comparatively much and different stuff to do wherever you went. In both cases I was always fixed on finding stuff that usually I wouldn't have at this point in the game and that worked really well, but also the worlds were really interesting. In M&M you had those minigames where you would simply read a text of an NPC and had to answer his question like a puzzle or something; very simple but quite rewarding (however also too easy to look up the answers nowadays ;)) but also you had to learn skills to get to some places in the world like swimming and mountaineering, a really cool feature as well. I don't know if you would like those games, especially nowadays, but compared to 3D games they had the added advantage that walking around didn't take SO much of your time. Which is a dealbreaker for me oftentimes, too.
Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
I guess it's a matter of personal taste, because for me, the disadvantages you list are what makes an open-world RPG desirable. I like the feeling of being in a world that feels real independently of you, with its normal citizens doing normal things, its work and errands going on, its cities and spaces, many of them irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but where you may get lost doing some quest or other if you so desire. For me, it's much better for immersion than most modern games which focus on tight storytelling: you're special, have to follow your destiny, everything in the world is placed there to drive the plot, help you in your quest or entertain you. There are no dishes and food in residences (or maybe, no residences at all) because who cares, that has no bearing in the quest of the great hero. When I play games like that (i.e., most), they feel artificial and limited to me so I don't enjoy them as much. In fact, for me the best TES game is not even Morrowind, it's Daggerfall (if anyone wants to try it, there's a very good modern remake: Daggerfall Unity) because it's closest to the ideal of the realistic huge world that doesn't especially care about you. I think you wouldn't like it at all because it has the things you don't like about Morrowind, but taken to the extreme :) Mind you, I totally get why some people prefer the tight storytelling where the experience of following the main quest has been distilled and optimized, and has more detail and uniqueness due to not relying so much on procedural generation and repeated models. It's very personal. So let's hope for plenty of RPGs for every taste in the future. PS: the kind of games I'm praising often have the massive imbalances you point out, like being able to win with an absurd character (I guess because it's very hard to balance things when you're free to do a wide range of actions in the world, rather than following some predetermined quest lines). Daggerfall also has plenty of that kind of issues, including choices at character creation that feel like exploits and make the game much easier. But for the kind of person who likes this kind of games, this doesn't matter that much. I roleplay my characters. I wouldn't create an OP absurd character because it isn't fun... I just think what kind of character I want to be in the world, and create it.
- grawprog 6y ago
  >I guess it's a matter of personal taste, because for me, the disadvantages you list are what makes an open-world RPG desirable. Totally agree with it being a matter of personal taste. If people didn't enjoy those kinds of games they wouldn't make them. >For me, it's much better for immersion than most modern games which focus on tight storytelling: you're special, have to follow your destiny, everything in the world is placed there to drive the plot, help you in your quest or entertain you. I'm not really a big fan of linear story driven games either to be honest. Most of them go way too far in the opposite direction have have many of those flaws you describe in your post. The modern final fantasy games or the Drake series type stuff all have those problems. >So let's hope for plenty of RPGs for every taste in the future. 100% agree with this. More variety is always better. I think where our tastes seem to differ when it comes to these kinds of games is more in the implementation of exploration. Say, take a game like dark souls. I find its world to be more immersive and suitable for roleplaying a character than something like daggerfall. In dark souls, you escape from a prison, end up in some dying kingdom, get a vague hint about what's going on and you're pretty much left on your own to piece it out and figure out what needs to be done and where to go. But you don't have to if you don't want to hell, you can turn around and play an entirely different main story if you want to and you're skilled enough. The world and the NPCs don't feel like they exist for your quest, as you wander around you get the impression it really is a dying world full of lost souls awaiting the inevitable. Everything you find feels like an actual part of the world. There's a reason for it to be there, both gameplay wise and usually if you pay enough attention, you can figure out the story of why the item's there, even with random pickups like souls. To me that feels more immersive than walking into a house and being like, oh ya someone lives there, look their table's set up, or that NPC just told me they need to go take a shit. Because in the end, it's a video game not a life simulator. The world in a game doesn't need to be a complete reflection of our own mundane world for it to be realistic and immersive. The world just needs to be consistent, well realized and the gameplay and story should go hand in hand. The game shouldn't tell you the story, it's not a movie or a book, you should play the story. For me, the best balance is games that have a story and structure, but leave it vague and open ended enough for you to create your own story by playing. I feel like those rare games that manage to do that, are the ones that really utilize the full potential of video games as a unique entertainment medium.

meristohm 6y ago

When I was into Morrowind I already had about ten years of practice escaping into fantasy worlds via books and games. After listening to The Blindboy Podcast (after art and history, one theme is mental health) since mid-2020 and practicing cognitive behavior therapy to make more time to act between stimulus and (too-often-harmful) response, I no longer feel compelled to escape into games. Perhaps all those hours I spent exploring imaginary spaces helped in some way (I am much more grateful to authors of books, because they helped me develop visualization) and I try not to sink into regret. Having a child was a major contributor to growing up, too, perhaps the top; now I’m more adult and I get to freely enjoy childhood activities again with less risk of dependence. My point is: it’s okay to grow out of things and move on.

grawprog 6y ago
I do get that and I find my ability to escape into fantasy has dwindled in recent years, but I played morrowind at the time when I still read plenty of long winded fantasy books and the other games actually helped lead to my decline in enjoying fantasy. To counter that. I recently for the first time played dark souls and a couple years back played hollow Knight. I was able to immerse myself into both games because, every single thing you do and find has a point. Nothing really wastes your time. There's a reason for doing everything in those games. The things you find are worth it and rewarding. Exploring is worth it and rewarding. I never once really got that feeling from the elder scrolls games, or open world games in general. They have many, many things to do and find, but none of them feel satisfying. I prefer games with less things, but each thing feels worthwhile and meaningful. I'd rather find one awesome cool thing that changes the way I play the game or gives me something cool and new for my player over 20 Rusty forks and some apples any day.
- tasogare 6y ago
  > They have many, many things to do and find, but none of them feel satisfying. I’m usually downvoted to oblivion (pun intended) on Reddit for saying: I didn’t like Breath of the Wild for this reason. Empty world, no real rewards, infuriating weapon system, lack of scenario, no memorable music.
  - grawprog 6y ago
    Yeah. Breath of the wild seems the same way. I've never played it but i watched my old roommate play it. Its focus on exploration was cool, but it missed that thing that made zelda 1 fun.(apparently this was the inspiration for breath of the wild) Zelda 1 was pretty open ended, but again, all the things you found were useful, sure you could do the dungeons in a variety of orders and go wherever, but that's not what made it fun, what made it fun was that you could do that and that all those dungeons had one cool, useful, gamechanging thing to find. BoTW gave you all the game changing stuff at the beginning and said here...here's a world, ganon's over there, you probably can't get him now, but just wander around long enough and you can, or know what you're doing and you can. In theory that seems fun, but the lack of structure and progression kills it. That's what made zelda so great to begin with.
- Tarsul 6y ago
  I appreciate your comment. In my childhood open world games were - at least in my mind - the non-plus-ultra because the possibilites appeared to be endless. Nonetheless, you are right: Too often those possibilites are trite. I dislike Skyrim and Oblivion for those same reasons but for Morrowind I have a place in my heart because it really felt like you were exploring the world by yourself (not following your quest marker) and the rewards you could get were not just defined by its loot system but designed (so that you could get a really great sword relatively early if you found your way there), but you are right in that the world is rather empty and can be boring for some players like you. Actually, what has not been topped for me personally are 2 games: Might&Magic4+5 (you could play them as a combo-game, changing worlds!) and Fallout 2 because in both those cases the worlds were massive and you could go wherever you wanted to but still had comparatively much and different stuff to do wherever you went. In both cases I was always fixed on finding stuff that usually I wouldn't have at this point in the game and that worked really well, but also the worlds were really interesting. In M&M you had those minigames where you would simply read a text of an NPC and had to answer his question like a puzzle or something; very simple but quite rewarding (however also too easy to look up the answers nowadays ;)) but also you had to learn skills to get to some places in the world like swimming and mountaineering, a really cool feature as well. I don't know if you would like those games, especially nowadays, but compared to 3D games they had the added advantage that walking around didn't take SO much of your time. Which is a dealbreaker for me oftentimes, too.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago

I guess it's a matter of personal taste, because for me, the disadvantages you list are what makes an open-world RPG desirable. I like the feeling of being in a world that feels real independently of you, with its normal citizens doing normal things, its work and errands going on, its cities and spaces, many of them irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but where you may get lost doing some quest or other if you so desire. For me, it's much better for immersion than most modern games which focus on tight storytelling: you're special, have to follow your destiny, everything in the world is placed there to drive the plot, help you in your quest or entertain you. There are no dishes and food in residences (or maybe, no residences at all) because who cares, that has no bearing in the quest of the great hero. When I play games like that (i.e., most), they feel artificial and limited to me so I don't enjoy them as much. In fact, for me the best TES game is not even Morrowind, it's Daggerfall (if anyone wants to try it, there's a very good modern remake: Daggerfall Unity) because it's closest to the ideal of the realistic huge world that doesn't especially care about you. I think you wouldn't like it at all because it has the things you don't like about Morrowind, but taken to the extreme :) Mind you, I totally get why some people prefer the tight storytelling where the experience of following the main quest has been distilled and optimized, and has more detail and uniqueness due to not relying so much on procedural generation and repeated models. It's very personal. So let's hope for plenty of RPGs for every taste in the future. PS: the kind of games I'm praising often have the massive imbalances you point out, like being able to win with an absurd character (I guess because it's very hard to balance things when you're free to do a wide range of actions in the world, rather than following some predetermined quest lines). Daggerfall also has plenty of that kind of issues, including choices at character creation that feel like exploits and make the game much easier. But for the kind of person who likes this kind of games, this doesn't matter that much. I roleplay my characters. I wouldn't create an OP absurd character because it isn't fun... I just think what kind of character I want to be in the world, and create it.

grawprog 6y ago
>I guess it's a matter of personal taste, because for me, the disadvantages you list are what makes an open-world RPG desirable. Totally agree with it being a matter of personal taste. If people didn't enjoy those kinds of games they wouldn't make them. >For me, it's much better for immersion than most modern games which focus on tight storytelling: you're special, have to follow your destiny, everything in the world is placed there to drive the plot, help you in your quest or entertain you. I'm not really a big fan of linear story driven games either to be honest. Most of them go way too far in the opposite direction have have many of those flaws you describe in your post. The modern final fantasy games or the Drake series type stuff all have those problems. >So let's hope for plenty of RPGs for every taste in the future. 100% agree with this. More variety is always better. I think where our tastes seem to differ when it comes to these kinds of games is more in the implementation of exploration. Say, take a game like dark souls. I find its world to be more immersive and suitable for roleplaying a character than something like daggerfall. In dark souls, you escape from a prison, end up in some dying kingdom, get a vague hint about what's going on and you're pretty much left on your own to piece it out and figure out what needs to be done and where to go. But you don't have to if you don't want to hell, you can turn around and play an entirely different main story if you want to and you're skilled enough. The world and the NPCs don't feel like they exist for your quest, as you wander around you get the impression it really is a dying world full of lost souls awaiting the inevitable. Everything you find feels like an actual part of the world. There's a reason for it to be there, both gameplay wise and usually if you pay enough attention, you can figure out the story of why the item's there, even with random pickups like souls. To me that feels more immersive than walking into a house and being like, oh ya someone lives there, look their table's set up, or that NPC just told me they need to go take a shit. Because in the end, it's a video game not a life simulator. The world in a game doesn't need to be a complete reflection of our own mundane world for it to be realistic and immersive. The world just needs to be consistent, well realized and the gameplay and story should go hand in hand. The game shouldn't tell you the story, it's not a movie or a book, you should play the story. For me, the best balance is games that have a story and structure, but leave it vague and open ended enough for you to create your own story by playing. I feel like those rare games that manage to do that, are the ones that really utilize the full potential of video games as a unique entertainment medium.