5 ms·

And yet here I am, on one of the most "anti-design" sites I know (which even has a "noprocrast" feature), frantically pressing F5 every other minute looking for

And yet here I am, on one of the most "anti-design" sites I know (which even has a "noprocrast" feature), frantically pressing F5 every other minute looking for articles like this. Sigh.

hinkley 5y ago
In online, 'multiplayer' environments, there is always something going on and if you're not there every single waking moment, you'll miss out. You can fiddle with all of the design elements all you want, but if the underlying interactions are built on FOMO, there's not much you can do about it. I had this realization as a senior in college, and it's the reason I never went into game design. I knew too many dropouts for whom gaming was part of the equation.
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  A bit unrelated and I'm sure you had your reasons, but it's worth noting that while this is rampant in multiplayer games, it's not really common in single player games which are still fairly popular. I see and play plenty of such games and I think it wouldn't be too difficult to find game design work making interesting single player experiences instead of the typical multiplayer treadmill.
- ragnese 5y ago
  I know this probably doesn't mean anything, but thank you for following your conscience.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    I tend to lean pretty hard on internal motivation but it's nice to hear. I really hoped that Jane McGonigal was onto something big when she started trying to put these dark patterns to positive use, but it seems to have fizzled. Sometimes it takes a couple of hype cycles for a good idea to stick. Fingers crossed.
- stevewodil 5y ago
  Tangentially related, this article was very recently published by a newsletter I follow. It talks about strategies to make your real life more interesting, and that by playing video games for hours you have proven that you have certain skills that are useful (like focus, achieving goals, learning new things, etc). I found it really interesting as someone that struggled with video games previously. I don't currently struggle with them (though if I had the right desk setup I probably would have a hard time staying away from them still), but certainly there are always other things that take their place. I was kind of floored to realize that I can actually focus really intently on a video game, and thus I do possess the ability to focus despite my difficulties to do so on boring work tasks. Maybe you'll find something interesting, inspiring, or thought-provoking within it: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/play-the-ultimate-game-your-real-life https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/play-the-ultimate-game...
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  > underlying interactions are built on FOMO My experience is that addiction to sites like HN is built more on fearof facing up to some other part of your life.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    I think it alternates between the two. At various points one can be the scapegoat for the other.
- c22 5y ago
  This is an astute observation. I guess you could limit this effect somewhat by making your product operate on a digest model. Batch comments and release them on a schedule. In addition to making your product less addictive it could give the operators a chance to pre-moderate and curate the content stream.
piou 5y ago
For some part of the population, me included, taking the action of reloading feels better than being pushed from one piece of content to another - it helps me tell myself I'm in control, unlike with, say, video sites that automatically queue up the next video. A killer anti-design feature for a place like Hacker News would be to limit how many links and comments get posted every hour or day. Which would have me reloading less often, which would - accomplish the goal of me spending less time here, I guess? But seriously, the thing most likely to keep me from infinite scrolling or reloading is to have a roommate or live-in significant other.
- throwamon 5y ago
  I don't feel in control at all. In fact I realized I tend to engage in this mindless refreshing when I'm exceptionally stressed out, which I know is pretty much the opposite of helpful. And I wish it was as easy as just having fewer links on HN. I'd just go to Reddit instead.
  - loopz 5y ago
    rss solves this nicely + train your willpower The imoortant stories tend to resurface and lurk on reddit too.
  - piou 5y ago
    "have a roommate or live-in significant other" - life's killer app.
- saurik 5y ago
  The #1 thing I need is a feature that makes me feel confident that if I spend a few hours carefully and deliberately looking at Hacker News this weekend that I will not "miss" the stuff I would have seen throughout the week. The various sites which try to show you the highlights never seem to actually show me the stuff I would have found in the moment looking at the site :/. It sucks too because it isn't like anything af all about this site is "real time" in the sense that it goes away later... except figuring out how to show people the historical rankings is missing. (I am considering trying to build a mechanism to do this for me, as I often feel like my solution to things I am addicted to is to automate their recording and then realize I never bothered to look at the recordings.)
FearlessNebula 5y ago
What is this noprocrast feature? I don't see it in the interface and can't find it on Google
- hollerith 5y ago
  You can turn it on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FearlessNebula https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FearlessNebula
- drdeca 5y ago
  click on your username on the top right corner. There is a dropdown labeled "noprocrast", and I think the text-fields under it saying "maxvisit" and "minaway" put, respectively, a maximum amount of time that it will let you use the site contiguously (in minutes) (or, possibly, maximum number of distinct times it lets you use the site per day? not sure) and a minimum amount of time between visits. I haven't used the feature, so I'm not sure quite what it does.
maxerickson 5y ago
That isn't what design means.
ppf 5y ago
It's tough. HN is the last of my social accounts. I'm really trying to limit it to once a day - you really don't miss anything, and it intrudes far less into your day.
greggman3 5y ago
HN is designed for addiction because it shows me a score. Stop displaying the score on individual comment, posts, and profile and much of the addiction would go away IMO
- Gravyness 5y ago
  You can download an css injection extension for this in minutes. I love this simplicity about hackernews. Try that on google, twitter, reddit, instagram and you'll see html elements with classes like "_9AhH0" that change daily, and I'm not exaggerating.
ogennadi 5y ago
I use the HN frontpage link which only updates stories about once a day. https://news.ycombinator.com/front https://news.ycombinator.com/front

And yet here I am, on one of the most "anti-design" sites I know (which even has a "noprocrast" feature), frantically pressing F5 every other minute looking for articles like this. Sigh.

hinkley 5y ago

In online, 'multiplayer' environments, there is always something going on and if you're not there every single waking moment, you'll miss out. You can fiddle with all of the design elements all you want, but if the underlying interactions are built on FOMO, there's not much you can do about it. I had this realization as a senior in college, and it's the reason I never went into game design. I knew too many dropouts for whom gaming was part of the equation.

themacguffinman 5y ago
A bit unrelated and I'm sure you had your reasons, but it's worth noting that while this is rampant in multiplayer games, it's not really common in single player games which are still fairly popular. I see and play plenty of such games and I think it wouldn't be too difficult to find game design work making interesting single player experiences instead of the typical multiplayer treadmill.
ragnese 5y ago
I know this probably doesn't mean anything, but thank you for following your conscience.
- hinkley 5y ago
  I tend to lean pretty hard on internal motivation but it's nice to hear. I really hoped that Jane McGonigal was onto something big when she started trying to put these dark patterns to positive use, but it seems to have fizzled. Sometimes it takes a couple of hype cycles for a good idea to stick. Fingers crossed.
stevewodil 5y ago
Tangentially related, this article was very recently published by a newsletter I follow. It talks about strategies to make your real life more interesting, and that by playing video games for hours you have proven that you have certain skills that are useful (like focus, achieving goals, learning new things, etc). I found it really interesting as someone that struggled with video games previously. I don't currently struggle with them (though if I had the right desk setup I probably would have a hard time staying away from them still), but certainly there are always other things that take their place. I was kind of floored to realize that I can actually focus really intently on a video game, and thus I do possess the ability to focus despite my difficulties to do so on boring work tasks. Maybe you'll find something interesting, inspiring, or thought-provoking within it: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/play-the-ultimate-game-your-real-life https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/play-the-ultimate-game...
AlexCoventry 5y ago
> underlying interactions are built on FOMO My experience is that addiction to sites like HN is built more on fearof facing up to some other part of your life.
- hinkley 5y ago
  I think it alternates between the two. At various points one can be the scapegoat for the other.
c22 5y ago
This is an astute observation. I guess you could limit this effect somewhat by making your product operate on a digest model. Batch comments and release them on a schedule. In addition to making your product less addictive it could give the operators a chance to pre-moderate and curate the content stream.

piou 5y ago

For some part of the population, me included, taking the action of reloading feels better than being pushed from one piece of content to another - it helps me tell myself I'm in control, unlike with, say, video sites that automatically queue up the next video. A killer anti-design feature for a place like Hacker News would be to limit how many links and comments get posted every hour or day. Which would have me reloading less often, which would - accomplish the goal of me spending less time here, I guess? But seriously, the thing most likely to keep me from infinite scrolling or reloading is to have a roommate or live-in significant other.

throwamon 5y ago
I don't feel in control at all. In fact I realized I tend to engage in this mindless refreshing when I'm exceptionally stressed out, which I know is pretty much the opposite of helpful. And I wish it was as easy as just having fewer links on HN. I'd just go to Reddit instead.
- loopz 5y ago
  rss solves this nicely + train your willpower The imoortant stories tend to resurface and lurk on reddit too.
- piou 5y ago
  "have a roommate or live-in significant other" - life's killer app.
saurik 5y ago
The #1 thing I need is a feature that makes me feel confident that if I spend a few hours carefully and deliberately looking at Hacker News this weekend that I will not "miss" the stuff I would have seen throughout the week. The various sites which try to show you the highlights never seem to actually show me the stuff I would have found in the moment looking at the site :/. It sucks too because it isn't like anything af all about this site is "real time" in the sense that it goes away later... except figuring out how to show people the historical rankings is missing. (I am considering trying to build a mechanism to do this for me, as I often feel like my solution to things I am addicted to is to automate their recording and then realize I never bothered to look at the recordings.)

FearlessNebula 5y ago

What is this noprocrast feature? I don't see it in the interface and can't find it on Google

hollerith 5y ago
You can turn it on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FearlessNebula https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FearlessNebula
drdeca 5y ago
click on your username on the top right corner. There is a dropdown labeled "noprocrast", and I think the text-fields under it saying "maxvisit" and "minaway" put, respectively, a maximum amount of time that it will let you use the site contiguously (in minutes) (or, possibly, maximum number of distinct times it lets you use the site per day? not sure) and a minimum amount of time between visits. I haven't used the feature, so I'm not sure quite what it does.

maxerickson 5y ago

That isn't what design means.

ppf 5y ago

It's tough. HN is the last of my social accounts. I'm really trying to limit it to once a day - you really don't miss anything, and it intrudes far less into your day.

greggman3 5y ago

HN is designed for addiction because it shows me a score. Stop displaying the score on individual comment, posts, and profile and much of the addiction would go away IMO

Gravyness 5y ago
You can download an css injection extension for this in minutes. I love this simplicity about hackernews. Try that on google, twitter, reddit, instagram and you'll see html elements with classes like "_9AhH0" that change daily, and I'm not exaggerating.

ogennadi 5y ago

I use the HN frontpage link which only updates stories about once a day. https://news.ycombinator.com/front https://news.ycombinator.com/front