4 ms·

> It's like banning assault rifles to prevent mobsters from getting hold of them. Obvious bait is obvious but whatever, I'm in... Is it the same, though? Is i

by Jenk 6y ago

> It's like banning assault rifles to prevent mobsters from getting hold of them. Obvious bait is obvious but whatever, I'm in... Is it the same, though? Is it really? On one side we have literal implements of death responsible for countless accidental and/or illegal deaths, and the other we have some encryption software.

CameronNemo 6y ago
Never said same! Just has some resemblances. As well as major hilarious contrasts (hence why I chose the subject, instead of cats and cat lovers). I don't think a gun and cryptography should have the same treatment.
robcohen 6y ago
Countless doesn’t seem totally accurate. Last I checked the FBI census a few years back showed 318 deaths over a year due to long guns in the United States. That includes shotgun, rifle, and scary “assault” weapons. Handguns on the other hand kill 100x-200x the same amount of people. Seems like if gun control proponents wanted to reduce harm, they’d focus on handguns first.
- Jenk 6y ago
  318 > 0. So yeah.. ban all guns then.
  - HideousKojima 6y ago
    390 deaths from swimming pools every year in the US. 390 > 0, ban all swimming pools.
    - Jenk 6y ago
      How many people are pointing swimming pools at each other or themselves with the intent on causing harm?
      - HideousKojima 6y ago
        No idea since homicide by drowning is notoriously hard to prove[0], but the median pool is more likely to drown someone than the median "assault weapon" is to kill someone. ~10 million swimming pools in the US vs. ~20 million "assault weapons," and there are fewer murders annually with long guns of all types (of which "assault weapons" are a small subset) than there are pool drownings. Also pools disproportionately kill kids, while most victims of gun violence ate adults. 0 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/drowning-one-hardest-homicides-prove-these-investigators-want-change-n1011911 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/drowning-one-hardest-ho...
- schoolornot 6y ago
  Aggregated stats from 2019: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
  - Jenk 6y ago
    That's _just_ murder. Doesn't include accidental deaths.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  I’m not sure why you need to split your focus on handguns versus long guns. I bet most gun deaths are caused by right-handed people too, but that doesn’t mean we should focus on gun laws for right-handed people first.
  - hn8788 6y ago
    Because that's what politicians do. Tons of talk about banning "weapons of war" that are rarely used to kill anyone, meanwhile handguns are used for murder/suicide much more often, but they rarely make the news because they aren't scary looking, and because the majority of crimes with them are committed by minorities, so Democrats don't want more restrictions on them. And before anyone says it, no, that last part is not some right-wing racist conspiracy. A couple of years ago in Maryland, the governor wanted harsher punishments for people using handguns to commit crimes because of how bad gun violence is in Baltimore, and the state Democrats said it was a racist policy because it would mostly affect minorities. They didn't want to seem soft on gun violence though, so they banned bump stocks, which have never been used to commit a crime in Maryland, and which the ATF says are trivial to reproduce using belt loops and rubber bands.
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  300 + confirmed by rifle. 3,000 + had no weapon type listed. How confident are you that no rifles snuck into the unknown weapon type.
ian-g 6y ago
I think the point is that the people who're already on the wrong side of the law will continue ignoring this new law. Mobsters won't stop buying guns because they're banned. Lots of people won't stop using encryption software just because it's banned.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  >Lots of people won't stop using encryption software just because it's banned. In particular organized crime, which the government is claiming to address via this policy.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  I think the hope isn’t that mobsters would choose to stop buying guns out of respect for the law, but rather that it will literally be more difficult for mobsters to buy guns because of actual enforcement of the law.
- kajecounterhack 6y ago
  Like any abuse fighting, your goal is not to make guns impossible to get (which is impossible), your goal is to make it as expensive as humanly possible, which decreases how many people have them and increases overall societal safety. Also mobsters get rid of guns that killed people because they can lead to stiffer penalties. So taking legal guns out of circulation and then making strong deterrents for possession of illegal guns does help achieve this aim, you're decreasing the overall supply and driving up their prices.
debacle 6y ago
Those implements of death have been tools of liberty, stability, and safety in the hands of hundreds of millions of people across the world in the last several hundred years. The world, under its thin, patchy veneer of peace and prosperity, is still a savage place. Ask the IDF, Ukraine, South Korea, etc.
PartiallyTyped 6y ago
The moment encryption becomes illegal is the moment political dissidents, whistleblowers, reporters and every person in between are criminals. We forfeit our freedom to express any idea or thought that deviates from the current list of acceptable thought patterns. Suddenly you and all your thoughts or actions are subject to tracking by any government, any government official, any corporation and any malevolect actor. The government already has a monopoly on violence, what's next?
- Jenk 6y ago
  I think you replied to the wrong post. I'm against banning encryption.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
> On one side we have literal implements of death responsible for countless accidental and/or illegal deaths Cars?

by Jenk 6y ago

CameronNemo 6y ago

Never said same! Just has some resemblances. As well as major hilarious contrasts (hence why I chose the subject, instead of cats and cat lovers). I don't think a gun and cryptography should have the same treatment.

robcohen 6y ago

Countless doesn’t seem totally accurate. Last I checked the FBI census a few years back showed 318 deaths over a year due to long guns in the United States. That includes shotgun, rifle, and scary “assault” weapons. Handguns on the other hand kill 100x-200x the same amount of people. Seems like if gun control proponents wanted to reduce harm, they’d focus on handguns first.

Jenk 6y ago
318 > 0. So yeah.. ban all guns then.
- HideousKojima 6y ago
  390 deaths from swimming pools every year in the US. 390 > 0, ban all swimming pools.
  - Jenk 6y ago
    How many people are pointing swimming pools at each other or themselves with the intent on causing harm?
    - HideousKojima 6y ago
      No idea since homicide by drowning is notoriously hard to prove[0], but the median pool is more likely to drown someone than the median "assault weapon" is to kill someone. ~10 million swimming pools in the US vs. ~20 million "assault weapons," and there are fewer murders annually with long guns of all types (of which "assault weapons" are a small subset) than there are pool drownings. Also pools disproportionately kill kids, while most victims of gun violence ate adults. 0 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/drowning-one-hardest-homicides-prove-these-investigators-want-change-n1011911 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/drowning-one-hardest-ho...
schoolornot 6y ago
Aggregated stats from 2019: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
- Jenk 6y ago
  That's _just_ murder. Doesn't include accidental deaths.
tshaddox 6y ago
I’m not sure why you need to split your focus on handguns versus long guns. I bet most gun deaths are caused by right-handed people too, but that doesn’t mean we should focus on gun laws for right-handed people first.
- hn8788 6y ago
  Because that's what politicians do. Tons of talk about banning "weapons of war" that are rarely used to kill anyone, meanwhile handguns are used for murder/suicide much more often, but they rarely make the news because they aren't scary looking, and because the majority of crimes with them are committed by minorities, so Democrats don't want more restrictions on them. And before anyone says it, no, that last part is not some right-wing racist conspiracy. A couple of years ago in Maryland, the governor wanted harsher punishments for people using handguns to commit crimes because of how bad gun violence is in Baltimore, and the state Democrats said it was a racist policy because it would mostly affect minorities. They didn't want to seem soft on gun violence though, so they banned bump stocks, which have never been used to commit a crime in Maryland, and which the ATF says are trivial to reproduce using belt loops and rubber bands.
dghlsakjg 6y ago
300 + confirmed by rifle. 3,000 + had no weapon type listed. How confident are you that no rifles snuck into the unknown weapon type.

ian-g 6y ago

I think the point is that the people who're already on the wrong side of the law will continue ignoring this new law. Mobsters won't stop buying guns because they're banned. Lots of people won't stop using encryption software just because it's banned.

CameronNemo 6y ago
>Lots of people won't stop using encryption software just because it's banned. In particular organized crime, which the government is claiming to address via this policy.
tshaddox 6y ago
I think the hope isn’t that mobsters would choose to stop buying guns out of respect for the law, but rather that it will literally be more difficult for mobsters to buy guns because of actual enforcement of the law.
kajecounterhack 6y ago
Like any abuse fighting, your goal is not to make guns impossible to get (which is impossible), your goal is to make it as expensive as humanly possible, which decreases how many people have them and increases overall societal safety. Also mobsters get rid of guns that killed people because they can lead to stiffer penalties. So taking legal guns out of circulation and then making strong deterrents for possession of illegal guns does help achieve this aim, you're decreasing the overall supply and driving up their prices.

debacle 6y ago

Those implements of death have been tools of liberty, stability, and safety in the hands of hundreds of millions of people across the world in the last several hundred years. The world, under its thin, patchy veneer of peace and prosperity, is still a savage place. Ask the IDF, Ukraine, South Korea, etc.

PartiallyTyped 6y ago

The moment encryption becomes illegal is the moment political dissidents, whistleblowers, reporters and every person in between are criminals. We forfeit our freedom to express any idea or thought that deviates from the current list of acceptable thought patterns. Suddenly you and all your thoughts or actions are subject to tracking by any government, any government official, any corporation and any malevolect actor. The government already has a monopoly on violence, what's next?

Jenk 6y ago
I think you replied to the wrong post. I'm against banning encryption.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

> On one side we have literal implements of death responsible for countless accidental and/or illegal deaths Cars?