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I mean, Amazon has traditionally been a pretty great place to work, even in fulfillment centers the pay is above industry averages and FT employees have perks t

I mean, Amazon has traditionally been a pretty great place to work, even in fulfillment centers the pay is above industry averages and FT employees have perks they wouldn't get anywhere else. They're having some issues scaling that while maintaining good conditions (esp. when contractors are involved), but we're talking about a company that has nearly doubled its workforce in the last two years. I doubt very much that any company in that size range could do the same without big problems; clients I've worked with and talked to see similar problems scaling from 50 to 100 employees, but no one cares because the company isn't a household name.

apocolyps6 6y ago
Did your clients have their employees pee in bottles as a de-facto company policy? Is that the sort of thing that just tends to happen as companies scale?
basedgod 6y ago
what are you talking about? even swe's here post about Amazon's frequently (though not universal) abusive work culture their employees unethically classified as "contractors" are notoriously poorly treated. their fullfilment center workers have to fight for basic rights and are often not treated like humans. their job security is zero, and meeting 95% of productivity targets is grounds for dismissal I don't understand this websites bootlicking for tech companies. "some issues scaling" is an insulting characterization to the actual depths of their problems. Amazon as a company is not genuinely looking out for the interests of it's lower paid workers, not doing anything near the top of the industry average in addressing them don't defend companies simply because other companies "aren't don't much better". everyone must be held accountable
an_opabinia 6y ago
While you shouldn't be downvoted, > even in fulfillment centers the pay is above industry averages This was debunked, many warehouses pay $18-22+ (see https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-wages-alabama-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w... or I guess just Google it). > but no one cares because the company isn't a household name. While I understand you might mean journalists don't care, small businesses with fewer than 500 employees employ 47.3% of US workers (see https://smallbiztrends.com/small-business-statistics https://smallbiztrends.com/small-business-statistics). So it's really the worst kind of generalization you've made. Half of US workers will care about businesses that operate at small scales because they are employed by one.
- creddit 6y ago
  That "debunking" is comical. They compared the median wage of a giant metropolitan area to that of a subset of it which is ridiculously impoverished. What's more is the comparison of wages says nothing about other benefits or bonuses. Who else pays for your medical insurance in a no-skill job from day one? Basically no one, especially not in that area. Why do you think the employees voted 2-1 against a union? Because they're idiots and not enlightened like you? Do you think they have 0 ability to reason about their situations and the available opportunities around them? I'm not even morally/ethically/aesthetically/whateverily opposed to unions, but everyone who sits in their comfy armchairs in front of their monitors at their WFH job posting about the need for a union to represent these people when the people who would actually be represented by the theoretical union reject that need have no self awareness of their privilege nor the lack thereof of these workers. The workers know their situations a hell of a lot better than you do, and they didn't want a union! Overwhelmingly! At best you can argue that they were bombarded by anti-union propaganda but do you really think they're too dumb to realize that? Were they not also bombarded by pro-union propaganda??
  - MisterPea 6y ago
    Thank you, reminds me a little too much of Bernie supporters calling black voters "low-information voters" because they didn't vote for Bernie
    - creddit 6y ago
      Yes, but of course it's downvoted because Hacker News users hate the idea that they aren't superior to these working class folks or that they should have the autonomy/capability of self determination. No matter the implicit classism in this case nor the implicit racism in the Bernie case.
  - bonaldi 6y ago
    I think there are other arguments to be made: most likely scenarios include an absolute terror of retribution and a lack of faith in the state to protect them from it. This is a climate where companies lay off entire staffs for daring to unionise. If you’re working for a company that already makes you piss in a bottle and are concerned about keeping your job, what are you going to do when they order you as plainly as can be to vote no? It says absolutely nothing good about Amazon that the workers voted against unionization. You certainly can’t conclude the workers didn’t want to be unionised.
klyrs 6y ago
I've known several Amazon employees over the years, both developers (going way back) and warehouse workers (more recently). The developers have consistently described it as extremely taxing, but worth the pay. The warehouse workers described it as extremely taxing, but better than going hungry. The funny thing about Amazon is they don't just profit from shill reviews, but they also encourage shilling by their employees to boost their reputation. For that reason, I strongly weight first-hand accounts by people I know over everything else I've read online.
xiphias2 6y ago
Maybe you are right, but for me as an ex-Googler the fact that he used a door as his table turned me off when they wanted to interview me. Ergonomics is really important for my back. In Google I could adjust the desk position with a button.

apocolyps6 6y ago

Did your clients have their employees pee in bottles as a de-facto company policy? Is that the sort of thing that just tends to happen as companies scale?

basedgod 6y ago

what are you talking about? even swe's here post about Amazon's frequently (though not universal) abusive work culture their employees unethically classified as "contractors" are notoriously poorly treated. their fullfilment center workers have to fight for basic rights and are often not treated like humans. their job security is zero, and meeting 95% of productivity targets is grounds for dismissal I don't understand this websites bootlicking for tech companies. "some issues scaling" is an insulting characterization to the actual depths of their problems. Amazon as a company is not genuinely looking out for the interests of it's lower paid workers, not doing anything near the top of the industry average in addressing them don't defend companies simply because other companies "aren't don't much better". everyone must be held accountable

an_opabinia 6y ago

While you shouldn't be downvoted, > even in fulfillment centers the pay is above industry averages This was debunked, many warehouses pay $18-22+ (see https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-wages-alabama-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w... or I guess just Google it). > but no one cares because the company isn't a household name. While I understand you might mean journalists don't care, small businesses with fewer than 500 employees employ 47.3% of US workers (see https://smallbiztrends.com/small-business-statistics https://smallbiztrends.com/small-business-statistics). So it's really the worst kind of generalization you've made. Half of US workers will care about businesses that operate at small scales because they are employed by one.

creddit 6y ago
That "debunking" is comical. They compared the median wage of a giant metropolitan area to that of a subset of it which is ridiculously impoverished. What's more is the comparison of wages says nothing about other benefits or bonuses. Who else pays for your medical insurance in a no-skill job from day one? Basically no one, especially not in that area. Why do you think the employees voted 2-1 against a union? Because they're idiots and not enlightened like you? Do you think they have 0 ability to reason about their situations and the available opportunities around them? I'm not even morally/ethically/aesthetically/whateverily opposed to unions, but everyone who sits in their comfy armchairs in front of their monitors at their WFH job posting about the need for a union to represent these people when the people who would actually be represented by the theoretical union reject that need have no self awareness of their privilege nor the lack thereof of these workers. The workers know their situations a hell of a lot better than you do, and they didn't want a union! Overwhelmingly! At best you can argue that they were bombarded by anti-union propaganda but do you really think they're too dumb to realize that? Were they not also bombarded by pro-union propaganda??
- MisterPea 6y ago
  Thank you, reminds me a little too much of Bernie supporters calling black voters "low-information voters" because they didn't vote for Bernie
  - creddit 6y ago
    Yes, but of course it's downvoted because Hacker News users hate the idea that they aren't superior to these working class folks or that they should have the autonomy/capability of self determination. No matter the implicit classism in this case nor the implicit racism in the Bernie case.
- bonaldi 6y ago
  I think there are other arguments to be made: most likely scenarios include an absolute terror of retribution and a lack of faith in the state to protect them from it. This is a climate where companies lay off entire staffs for daring to unionise. If you’re working for a company that already makes you piss in a bottle and are concerned about keeping your job, what are you going to do when they order you as plainly as can be to vote no? It says absolutely nothing good about Amazon that the workers voted against unionization. You certainly can’t conclude the workers didn’t want to be unionised.

klyrs 6y ago

I've known several Amazon employees over the years, both developers (going way back) and warehouse workers (more recently). The developers have consistently described it as extremely taxing, but worth the pay. The warehouse workers described it as extremely taxing, but better than going hungry. The funny thing about Amazon is they don't just profit from shill reviews, but they also encourage shilling by their employees to boost their reputation. For that reason, I strongly weight first-hand accounts by people I know over everything else I've read online.

xiphias2 6y ago

Maybe you are right, but for me as an ex-Googler the fact that he used a door as his table turned me off when they wanted to interview me. Ergonomics is really important for my back. In Google I could adjust the desk position with a button.