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And then there's always some jackass on the call who refuses to use headphones, causing an echo due to the feedback loop between their speakers and their microp

And then there's always some jackass on the call who refuses to use headphones, causing an echo due to the feedback loop between their speakers and their microphone, which makes everybody else sound terrible.

ghaff 6y ago
It really depends on the setup. I've tested by asking people with both computer speakers and wearing headphones and been told they didn't hear any difference.
- rectang 6y ago
  It doesn't affect your own voice! So asking, "do I sound different now" doesn't tell you anything! Refusing to wear headphones only spoils it for everybody else.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I am saying that I have tried this out by calling people and trying different things and they have told me that they can't tell the difference. This has included professional audio technicians recording a Zoom interview. I don't know why this sometimes seems to be a big deal and sometimes isn't, but that does seem to be the case.
    - rectang 6y ago
      Whenever you have a speaker and a microphone in the same room, there is always bleed from the speaker into the microphone. However, when those speakers are tiny little things pointed directly into your ear canals, the amount of bleed that makes it into the microphone is so small as to be completely negligible. For regular in-room speakers, the amount of bleed depends on the relative placement of the speaker and microphone, the directionality of both, the volume of sound from the speaker and the sensitivity of the microphone. For most people on videoconferencing calls, the amount of bleed is going to be quite substantial. The reason it's sometimes a big deal and sometimes not is because of echo cancellation software. But echo cancellation is a hard problem when you don't know the precise physical characteristics of the setup: the relative placement of the speakers and mic, the frequency response curves, and the amount of round trip latency. You have to attempt to detect what you think is an echo rather than a direct sound source, and then try to cancel it. That often fails. But because it sometimes works, people who hate headphones take that as license to never wear headphones. And since it doesn't affect them, they often don't realize how much they are wrecking the experience for everyone else.
      - adrianmonk 6y ago
        > For regular in-room speakers, the amount of bleed depends on the relative placement of the speaker and microphone, the directionality of both, the volume of sound from the speaker and the sensitivity of the microphone. And on how much reverberation there is in the room. If there's a tile floor, a brick wall, and no furniture with upholstery, sound is going to find some path from the speakers to the microphone no matter the placement and directionality. If you have carpet or a rug, maybe a couch or bed, etc., then some of the sound will get absorbed before it can get from speakers to microphone.
      - bscphil 6y ago
        > The reason it's sometimes a big deal and sometimes not is because of echo cancellation software. But echo cancellation is a hard problem when you don't know the precise physical characteristics of the setup Sort of. Software can approximate good echo cancellation for most conversations just by bringing down the mic volume when someone else is talking. Most meetings aren't supposed to have people talking over each other the whole time. Add to that the fact that most laptops have decent echo cancellation now and you can frequently get away with it. It's still something of a tragedy of the commons scenario though. If one person is creating an echo, then the speakers on the speaker's computer will play that echo while they are talking, which will get fed back it to the microphone, creating still more echo. That's when you really start to get major problems, but it's avoidable if no more than one person is using speakers.
tokamak-teapot 6y ago
Lots of us at work don’t wear headphones on calls. I used to think this might be a problem and occasionally asked how the sound is from my end. The response has always been that it’s great. Others sound great too. No echo. We have a mix of the enterprise type Dell laptops and MacBooks. Both seem fine. Software is usually Teams.
- rectang 6y ago
  As discussed elsethread, asking how you sound as you switch between headphones and speakers doesn't tell you anything. People who don't wear headphones make others sound bad (when the echo cancellation software fails). I experience this problem all the time: Zoom, Whereby, Google Meet, Slack etc. If people are disciplined about muting their mic when they aren't speaking, that helps. But as soon as you have one participant listening in without headphones and an unmuted mic, if the echo cancellation doesn't work then whoever else is speaking will sound bad.
  - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
    I’m just saying that I’m in meetings probably 4-5 hours a day with usually between 3 and 15 people and the proportion of people wearing headphones is probably 20%. We don’t seem to have echo issues, though with previous conferencing software this was sometimes an issue. I used to use headphones but they don’t seem necessary any more. Maybe Teams is just good at this?
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Things have almost certainly improved at least on some platforms. I do wear wireless headphones (but use a wired mic) for critical recording situations. But, yeah, tons of the people I have on my often hours of calls a day are not wearing headphones/earbuds and I just don't hear the problems that the "never use speakers" folks raise. And I've never used Teams. Combination of Bluejeans, Google Meet, and Zoom mostly. If I were this rogue speaker person ruining things for everyone else wearing headsets, I'd maybe accept that I was a general problem. But that's just not what I see.

ghaff 6y ago

It really depends on the setup. I've tested by asking people with both computer speakers and wearing headphones and been told they didn't hear any difference.

rectang 6y ago
It doesn't affect your own voice! So asking, "do I sound different now" doesn't tell you anything! Refusing to wear headphones only spoils it for everybody else.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I am saying that I have tried this out by calling people and trying different things and they have told me that they can't tell the difference. This has included professional audio technicians recording a Zoom interview. I don't know why this sometimes seems to be a big deal and sometimes isn't, but that does seem to be the case.
  - rectang 6y ago
    Whenever you have a speaker and a microphone in the same room, there is always bleed from the speaker into the microphone. However, when those speakers are tiny little things pointed directly into your ear canals, the amount of bleed that makes it into the microphone is so small as to be completely negligible. For regular in-room speakers, the amount of bleed depends on the relative placement of the speaker and microphone, the directionality of both, the volume of sound from the speaker and the sensitivity of the microphone. For most people on videoconferencing calls, the amount of bleed is going to be quite substantial. The reason it's sometimes a big deal and sometimes not is because of echo cancellation software. But echo cancellation is a hard problem when you don't know the precise physical characteristics of the setup: the relative placement of the speakers and mic, the frequency response curves, and the amount of round trip latency. You have to attempt to detect what you think is an echo rather than a direct sound source, and then try to cancel it. That often fails. But because it sometimes works, people who hate headphones take that as license to never wear headphones. And since it doesn't affect them, they often don't realize how much they are wrecking the experience for everyone else.
    - adrianmonk 6y ago
      > For regular in-room speakers, the amount of bleed depends on the relative placement of the speaker and microphone, the directionality of both, the volume of sound from the speaker and the sensitivity of the microphone. And on how much reverberation there is in the room. If there's a tile floor, a brick wall, and no furniture with upholstery, sound is going to find some path from the speakers to the microphone no matter the placement and directionality. If you have carpet or a rug, maybe a couch or bed, etc., then some of the sound will get absorbed before it can get from speakers to microphone.
    - bscphil 6y ago
      > The reason it's sometimes a big deal and sometimes not is because of echo cancellation software. But echo cancellation is a hard problem when you don't know the precise physical characteristics of the setup Sort of. Software can approximate good echo cancellation for most conversations just by bringing down the mic volume when someone else is talking. Most meetings aren't supposed to have people talking over each other the whole time. Add to that the fact that most laptops have decent echo cancellation now and you can frequently get away with it. It's still something of a tragedy of the commons scenario though. If one person is creating an echo, then the speakers on the speaker's computer will play that echo while they are talking, which will get fed back it to the microphone, creating still more echo. That's when you really start to get major problems, but it's avoidable if no more than one person is using speakers.

tokamak-teapot 6y ago

Lots of us at work don’t wear headphones on calls. I used to think this might be a problem and occasionally asked how the sound is from my end. The response has always been that it’s great. Others sound great too. No echo. We have a mix of the enterprise type Dell laptops and MacBooks. Both seem fine. Software is usually Teams.

rectang 6y ago
As discussed elsethread, asking how you sound as you switch between headphones and speakers doesn't tell you anything. People who don't wear headphones make others sound bad (when the echo cancellation software fails). I experience this problem all the time: Zoom, Whereby, Google Meet, Slack etc. If people are disciplined about muting their mic when they aren't speaking, that helps. But as soon as you have one participant listening in without headphones and an unmuted mic, if the echo cancellation doesn't work then whoever else is speaking will sound bad.
- tokamak-teapot 6y ago
  I’m just saying that I’m in meetings probably 4-5 hours a day with usually between 3 and 15 people and the proportion of people wearing headphones is probably 20%. We don’t seem to have echo issues, though with previous conferencing software this was sometimes an issue. I used to use headphones but they don’t seem necessary any more. Maybe Teams is just good at this?
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Things have almost certainly improved at least on some platforms. I do wear wireless headphones (but use a wired mic) for critical recording situations. But, yeah, tons of the people I have on my often hours of calls a day are not wearing headphones/earbuds and I just don't hear the problems that the "never use speakers" folks raise. And I've never used Teams. Combination of Bluejeans, Google Meet, and Zoom mostly. If I were this rogue speaker person ruining things for everyone else wearing headsets, I'd maybe accept that I was a general problem. But that's just not what I see.