7 ms·

My grandfather who was born in a poor country and was a farmer through out his life had a better life than these employees. Its a shame that decades (or should

My grandfather who was born in a poor country and was a farmer through out his life had a better life than these employees. Its a shame that decades (or should I say centuries) of productivity increases in US haven't trickled down in order for these employees to have better options than working at Amazon.

gowld 5y ago
How are you measuring quality of life? I assume you are saying that his work was easier in some sense, but what about the benefits that accrued from that work and the life environment in general?
- ecnerwala 5y ago
  His work wasn't objectively easier - he worked hard but on his own schedule. To be fair, I am measuring quality of life by what's important to me (rather than any standard metric), but there is a fair bit of overlap. The only weak point was healthcare which has since improved but a healthy lifestyle meant he never needed to visit hospitals. All things considered, I would rather be him than an Amazon warehouse worker.
thehappypm 5y ago
An Amazon warehouse worker very much can live up to the extremely high standard of living in the US, perhaps not lavishly, but at this income level can still own a home, have a family, have health care, and so on. Poor farmers in third-world countries watch their babies die from curable diseases.
- ecnerwala 5y ago
  You need a bit of perspective. The last part of your sentence hasn't been true in our country in the last 50 years. Working 3 jobs like a robot isn't what I consider high standard of living.
- krapp 5y ago
  Own a home, not likely. Not without at least a second job or income from a spouse or extended family. This is apartment rental income, not ownership class income.
  - ac29 5y ago
    The median monthly mortgage payment in the US is $1200, which means half of them are less than that. Not everywhere is the Bay Area or other super high cost of living areas. (And yes, I realize a mortgage is not the only cost of owning a home) https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive/ahstablecreator.html?s_areas=00000&s_year=2019&s_tablename=TABLE14B&s_bygroup1=1&s_bygroup2=1&s_filtergroup1=2&s_filtergroup2=1&s_show=SO https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive...
    - krapp 5y ago
      Yeah, when you add up all of the actual costs, you still have to be lucky enough to find an affordable property, have good credit and have significant savings set aside beforehand, and then you'll be living on margins so thin one bad accident or unplanned expense will be catastrophic. It's certainly not true that a $15/hr wage at an Amazon warehouse alone can "very much" support the "extremely high standard of living in the US" mentioned upthread as a general statement of fact.
    - virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
      The problem is the capital. Poor people don't have capital, they live paycheck to paycheck. Nobody is buying any mortgages without a down payment.
      - virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
        Why on earth did this get downvoted?
- zennn 5y ago
  I think people who live in what have been determined to be the happiest societies would strongly disagree with you here.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  An amazon worker makes, on average, $15 per hour. That's $31,500 per year. That is just a bit above poverty - the poverty level for a family of 4 is $26,500. You probably are going to have issues saving up for a house, and are going to be lucky to have enough leftover money to actually use the health care. Deductibles of $2-3k are really difficult at that range, especially if you have a family. In short, you are going to need your spouse to work as well. Then things look up, so long as both of you work. Good luck if you aren't dual income, though. Folks in the US die preventable deaths, by the way. And a lot of "third world countries" have health care in place, sometimes more fairly widespread than the US.
  - cm2012 5y ago
    The median US salary for an individual is 30k per year (median family income is 50k). So with an Amazon job an essentially unskilled worker can make more than half of all other Americans.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      fwiw, your numbers are correct, but the 30k figure includes part time workers and is therefore skewed to the downside. Among full time workers, the median annual income is about $51k for men and $48k for women, according to data collected by the BLS.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      So? The average is still not much above the poverty level, and as such, still poor.
      - random314 5y ago
        But look at the low median wages. There are already so many poor people in the US, whats 1 million more? /sarcasm
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The median US salary for an individual is 30k per year (median family income is 50k). Median family income is ~86k. [0] Median household income, which is likely what you wanted to cite and is the more common measure, is still much more than 50k, at ~68k. [1] Median personal income is about 36k. [2] Median hourly wage is $20.17. [3] So, no, a $15/hr Amazon worker isn’t making above-median wage and, even if they work 40hr weeks for a full year, isn’t making above-median income. [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA646N (nb: “family” for this purpose is defined basically as a household of two or more related by blood, marriage, and/or adoption.) [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=259568#snid=259585 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=25956... [3] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000
- chakhs 5y ago
  many 3rd world countries have 100% covered free healthcare, "babies die from curable diseases" is what you read in media to feel superior
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortality-rate/country-comparison https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortalit...
charlesju 5y ago
You know a good portion of this country is fighting to continue working in coal mines, right?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  There's only 50,000 people working in coal mines, and if you x10 for related businesses, that's only 500k people out of a country of 330M. I can't imagine this constitutes a "good portion" of this country (USA). https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/ https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/
  - Joeri 5y ago
    Also, those mines are heavily subsidized, basically $80K per year in subsidies / tax breaks per miner. Effectively they're being paid a government wage to keep mining. What you're seeing here is a large section of the population that likes the idea of coal mining, and willing to spend a lot of tax money to keep that idea alive.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      A large section of those states’ populations maybe. On a national level, they’re only relevant because of their ability to swing votes from one party to the other.
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    Working in coal mines, and working to support coal mines, aren't entirely the same thing. (More than) Half the country is against government provided healthcare, but that doesn't mean half the country works in private medicine or is immune to disease and injury.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Access to healthcare affects every single person and their community in a pretty obvious way. I don’t see any reason to assume people other than those in the coal industry and maybe their family and friends to care much about it. Maybe a few more for political ideology, but I still can’t see it being a significant amount. The only reason we hear so much about it is because the states with coal industry hold some swing Senate and Electoral College votes.
aerosmile 5y ago
Your grandfather - just like mine - was born a farmer and, statistically speaking, likely stayed a farmer his entire life. Today's United States offers the level of social mobility never experienced in any other country or at any other time in human history. But there's a catch... the social mobility you get here in the US comes with a higher reward but also a higher risk. If you play your cards well, you'll skip quite a few levels and can go from a poor immigrant to a decamillionaire within a single generation. But if you play them poorly, you might not only be left with nothing and become homeless, but you might literally get killed by disease or the police (yes, that happens elsewhere as well, but not within the runner up countries). So there you have it - what kind of a risk-to-reward ratio do you want? If you're shooting for the moon, come to the US, get a shitty laptop, start learning to code, and get a job in tech (no, you don't have to go to Harvard to get a 6-digit job as a developer). If you'd rather make sure that the chances of the worst case scenario are as low as possible, I'd recommend a socialist democracy like Austria where the government will never let you to drop below a certain level of comfort.
- lm28469 5y ago
  This, as usual with the US, is an extremely individualistic point of view on the topic. The problem is that the majority of people are bottom feeders and stay bottom feeders all their lives. Of course, if you play all your cards well and the planets are aligned you might end up better than somewhere else, the drawback is that everyone under a certain threshold will eat shit until they die > I'd recommend a socialist democracy like Austria The vast majority of people can't just "chose" to live where you recommend them to go. You're basically describing the proverbial american dream, it concerns an unbelievably small portion of the people living in the US, imho it's not too far from straight up propaganda to keep the gears turning, ie "I might have to work 2 full time jobs now but I'll work harder and in 5 years I'll make it". It even is a double edged sword, companies like Amazon or Uber made it _because_ they're allowed to stomp on bottom feeders, it's a game with a minority of extreme winner and a majority of losers. People don't want "social mobility", they want a decent life and access to basic things like medicine, affordable housing, toilet breaks no matter where they are on the social ladder... for every sociopathic wantrepreneur who wants to make it big you have thousands of family who just want to not be treated like cattle
ActorNightly 5y ago
Yeah that is not really true at all. Your grandfather had it objectively worse overall.

gowld 5y ago

How are you measuring quality of life? I assume you are saying that his work was easier in some sense, but what about the benefits that accrued from that work and the life environment in general?

ecnerwala 5y ago
His work wasn't objectively easier - he worked hard but on his own schedule. To be fair, I am measuring quality of life by what's important to me (rather than any standard metric), but there is a fair bit of overlap. The only weak point was healthcare which has since improved but a healthy lifestyle meant he never needed to visit hospitals. All things considered, I would rather be him than an Amazon warehouse worker.

thehappypm 5y ago

An Amazon warehouse worker very much can live up to the extremely high standard of living in the US, perhaps not lavishly, but at this income level can still own a home, have a family, have health care, and so on. Poor farmers in third-world countries watch their babies die from curable diseases.

ecnerwala 5y ago
You need a bit of perspective. The last part of your sentence hasn't been true in our country in the last 50 years. Working 3 jobs like a robot isn't what I consider high standard of living.
krapp 5y ago
Own a home, not likely. Not without at least a second job or income from a spouse or extended family. This is apartment rental income, not ownership class income.
- ac29 5y ago
  The median monthly mortgage payment in the US is $1200, which means half of them are less than that. Not everywhere is the Bay Area or other super high cost of living areas. (And yes, I realize a mortgage is not the only cost of owning a home) https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive/ahstablecreator.html?s_areas=00000&s_year=2019&s_tablename=TABLE14B&s_bygroup1=1&s_bygroup2=1&s_filtergroup1=2&s_filtergroup2=1&s_show=SO https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive...
  - krapp 5y ago
    Yeah, when you add up all of the actual costs, you still have to be lucky enough to find an affordable property, have good credit and have significant savings set aside beforehand, and then you'll be living on margins so thin one bad accident or unplanned expense will be catastrophic. It's certainly not true that a $15/hr wage at an Amazon warehouse alone can "very much" support the "extremely high standard of living in the US" mentioned upthread as a general statement of fact.
  - virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
    The problem is the capital. Poor people don't have capital, they live paycheck to paycheck. Nobody is buying any mortgages without a down payment.
    - virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
      Why on earth did this get downvoted?
zennn 5y ago
I think people who live in what have been determined to be the happiest societies would strongly disagree with you here.
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
An amazon worker makes, on average, $15 per hour. That's $31,500 per year. That is just a bit above poverty - the poverty level for a family of 4 is $26,500. You probably are going to have issues saving up for a house, and are going to be lucky to have enough leftover money to actually use the health care. Deductibles of $2-3k are really difficult at that range, especially if you have a family. In short, you are going to need your spouse to work as well. Then things look up, so long as both of you work. Good luck if you aren't dual income, though. Folks in the US die preventable deaths, by the way. And a lot of "third world countries" have health care in place, sometimes more fairly widespread than the US.
- cm2012 5y ago
  The median US salary for an individual is 30k per year (median family income is 50k). So with an Amazon job an essentially unskilled worker can make more than half of all other Americans.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    fwiw, your numbers are correct, but the 30k figure includes part time workers and is therefore skewed to the downside. Among full time workers, the median annual income is about $51k for men and $48k for women, according to data collected by the BLS.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    So? The average is still not much above the poverty level, and as such, still poor.
    - random314 5y ago
      But look at the low median wages. There are already so many poor people in the US, whats 1 million more? /sarcasm
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The median US salary for an individual is 30k per year (median family income is 50k). Median family income is ~86k. [0] Median household income, which is likely what you wanted to cite and is the more common measure, is still much more than 50k, at ~68k. [1] Median personal income is about 36k. [2] Median hourly wage is $20.17. [3] So, no, a $15/hr Amazon worker isn’t making above-median wage and, even if they work 40hr weeks for a full year, isn’t making above-median income. [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA646N (nb: “family” for this purpose is defined basically as a household of two or more related by blood, marriage, and/or adoption.) [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=259568#snid=259585 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=25956... [3] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000
chakhs 5y ago
many 3rd world countries have 100% covered free healthcare, "babies die from curable diseases" is what you read in media to feel superior
- thehappypm 5y ago
  https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortality-rate/country-comparison https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/infant-mortalit...

charlesju 5y ago

You know a good portion of this country is fighting to continue working in coal mines, right?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
There's only 50,000 people working in coal mines, and if you x10 for related businesses, that's only 500k people out of a country of 330M. I can't imagine this constitutes a "good portion" of this country (USA). https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/ https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/
- Joeri 5y ago
  Also, those mines are heavily subsidized, basically $80K per year in subsidies / tax breaks per miner. Effectively they're being paid a government wage to keep mining. What you're seeing here is a large section of the population that likes the idea of coal mining, and willing to spend a lot of tax money to keep that idea alive.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    A large section of those states’ populations maybe. On a national level, they’re only relevant because of their ability to swing votes from one party to the other.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  Working in coal mines, and working to support coal mines, aren't entirely the same thing. (More than) Half the country is against government provided healthcare, but that doesn't mean half the country works in private medicine or is immune to disease and injury.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Access to healthcare affects every single person and their community in a pretty obvious way. I don’t see any reason to assume people other than those in the coal industry and maybe their family and friends to care much about it. Maybe a few more for political ideology, but I still can’t see it being a significant amount. The only reason we hear so much about it is because the states with coal industry hold some swing Senate and Electoral College votes.

aerosmile 5y ago

Your grandfather - just like mine - was born a farmer and, statistically speaking, likely stayed a farmer his entire life. Today's United States offers the level of social mobility never experienced in any other country or at any other time in human history. But there's a catch... the social mobility you get here in the US comes with a higher reward but also a higher risk. If you play your cards well, you'll skip quite a few levels and can go from a poor immigrant to a decamillionaire within a single generation. But if you play them poorly, you might not only be left with nothing and become homeless, but you might literally get killed by disease or the police (yes, that happens elsewhere as well, but not within the runner up countries). So there you have it - what kind of a risk-to-reward ratio do you want? If you're shooting for the moon, come to the US, get a shitty laptop, start learning to code, and get a job in tech (no, you don't have to go to Harvard to get a 6-digit job as a developer). If you'd rather make sure that the chances of the worst case scenario are as low as possible, I'd recommend a socialist democracy like Austria where the government will never let you to drop below a certain level of comfort.

lm28469 5y ago
This, as usual with the US, is an extremely individualistic point of view on the topic. The problem is that the majority of people are bottom feeders and stay bottom feeders all their lives. Of course, if you play all your cards well and the planets are aligned you might end up better than somewhere else, the drawback is that everyone under a certain threshold will eat shit until they die > I'd recommend a socialist democracy like Austria The vast majority of people can't just "chose" to live where you recommend them to go. You're basically describing the proverbial american dream, it concerns an unbelievably small portion of the people living in the US, imho it's not too far from straight up propaganda to keep the gears turning, ie "I might have to work 2 full time jobs now but I'll work harder and in 5 years I'll make it". It even is a double edged sword, companies like Amazon or Uber made it _because_ they're allowed to stomp on bottom feeders, it's a game with a minority of extreme winner and a majority of losers. People don't want "social mobility", they want a decent life and access to basic things like medicine, affordable housing, toilet breaks no matter where they are on the social ladder... for every sociopathic wantrepreneur who wants to make it big you have thousands of family who just want to not be treated like cattle

ActorNightly 5y ago

Yeah that is not really true at all. Your grandfather had it objectively worse overall.