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US imposes sanctions on Russia over cyber-attacks

38 points by LinuxBender 6y ago

solosoyokaze 6y ago
It really bothers me that this seems to be based on Microsoft's word. I don't trust them. I don't want MS involved with the government at all, let alone as the spark that starts a new cold war. The US and its allies have done plenty of "cyber-attacks", yet no one seems up in arms about that. PRISM was a cyber-attack on our own citizens! This whole thing smells like manufactured consent.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  At this point, Russia is already maximally sanctioned, so really this is more like posturing by the US.
  - jlmorton 6y ago
    In what world is Russia maximally sanctioned? Compare sanctions In Iran to Russia and I think you'll find Russia is barely sanctioned at all.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      The Russian economy crashed around as much as Iran's. But as it is Russia-US trade is basically zero. Russia simply cannot be targeted by secondary sanctions though. It's just a much bigger economy that has a much bigger impact in worldwide trade. So the maximum possible extent before governments start clamping down on secondary sanctions is much lower.
- thisisnico 6y ago
  You're going to have a really really tough time riding Microsoft from government, considering it really is the number 1 enterprise software solution stack, and nothing even comes close to what Microsoft does in enterprise environments. I get that the hackernews crowd is very linux-biased because most of the web-software development world is based around linux. It's easy to think that linux is everything when it's really not.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    There should be legislation that mandates the use of open source software. I am no ok with my tax dollars going to Microsoft or any private software company. I'm also not ok with the government running closed source software (that does who knows what behind the scenes). Cut off Microsoft's government revenue and focus that cash on open source development and there will be replacements for MS products in no time.
throw4738 6y ago
US should impose sanctions on Russia over presidential election irreguties and interference.
- SonOfKyuss 6y ago
  This is for both. Election interference is mentioned in the third sentence.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  The US already imposed basically all the sanctions it can without just straight up trying to fuck over the Russian people as much as possible (the Russian people still got pretty fucked by sanctions already). Because of previous sanctions the Russian economy has a high degree of independence now and impact of sanctions is pretty limited.
  - thisisnico 6y ago
    I believe Russia had signed a deal with China to trade in their own currencies, as Russia attempts to fully de-dollarize their economy and trade. This was done since 2015 when the initial sanctions where applied.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Indeed. Additionally, a lot of Europe and much of the world is not going to be willing to let US secondary sanctions be applied against Russia.
  - throw4738 6y ago
    Russian citizens can still visit US! They could be spies who try to sabotage US economy. You can still stop them!
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic, but I'll assume good faith - the goal of US sanctions is to destroy the Russian economy as much as possible to weaken Russia. Russian citizens coming to the US is good for the goal of weakening the Russian economy. Russian spooks would find a way into the US no matter what.
throwaway4good 6y ago
Biden is escalating conflict with China, Russia and Iran (via Israel) all at the same time. I hope he knows what he is doing.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I mean, he doesn't really have a choice. If he didn't, the US would be perceived as having a position of weakness and it would be taken advantage of by powers that want to tilt the balance away from the US's hegemonic position.
- DFHippie 6y ago
  I seriously doubt Biden played any role in Israel's attack on Iran. Also, is reacting to provocation escalation? If you let other countries abuse you, is that de-escalation? I mean, it could be, but there will be people who argue both sides of both positions. I don't know exactly what would de-escalate each situation. Most likely it varies by participants involved. However, it is not obviously the case that reacting to provocations with sanctions is escalation.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  Kissenger (or some other geopolitics thinker of the realist school) would say play your enemies out against each other and don't solidify an alliance between Iran, China and Russia. I don't understand what drives Biden? Is this about ideology?
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    This is a neglected effect of US sanctions. It forces all of the US's enemies to ally themselves with each other, at least economically. This is about the US wanting to look and act like they still dominate.
    - throwaway4good 6y ago
      Is about looks? The US used to be smart when it came to geopolitics.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
splithalf 6y ago
Where is the public scrutiny of Biden’s diplomatic steps as we slide towards war, perhaps more than one? Trump at least had people’s undivided attention and a lot of checks and balances. Biden seems to have a blank check and a mindset based on the world 10 years ago. Accepting the limitations of old age seems especially hard for career politicians, but it has to impact performance. Imagine hiring an 80 year old CEO. It doesn’t happen for very good reasons.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  He is clearly escalating. Perhaps it is driven by a wish not to be perceived as "old and weak". If that is the case, it is not good. Currently Russian forces are amassing near Ukraine. Why put Russia in a situation where they don't care about Western reactions as it is already as bad as it can get? I mean what stick is Biden going to use if they actually invade?
  - splithalf 6y ago
    I think it’s easy to underestimate small stake tit for tats and I’ve not heard a clear or reassuring enunciation of Biden’s foreign policy vision other than the “undoing” of stuff that was done under trump. Iran is a particular concern. Hopefully my fears prove unfounded. It is still very early in the new administration to make judgements one way or the other, but it does seem the conditions are ripe for new directions if not abrupt shifts in global power dynamics.
  - rapjr9 6y ago
    I've been wondering if the following was part of Biden's retaliation: Three Top Russian Cybercrime Forums Hacked https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/three-top-russian-cybercrime-forums-hacked/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/three-top-russian-cyberc...
Dolores12 6y ago
I don't trust USA government since https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Colin_Powell_anthrax_vial._5_Feb_2003_at_the_UN.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Colin_Po... It is all so made up, innocent until proven guilty.
kaliali 6y ago
Why not sanctions over the Chinese for their cyber attacks? FBI chief slams Chinese cyberattacks on U.S., calls it ‘one of the largest transfers of wealth in human history’ https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/fbi-chief-slams-chinese-cyberattacks-against-us-hudson-institute.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/fbi-chief-slams-chinese-cybe... Intel officials call China "unparalleled priority" among world threats https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/intel-officials-call-china-unparalleled-priority-among-world-threats/ar-BB1fETBO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/intel-officials-call... Exclusive: Secret NSA Map Shows China Cyber Attacks on U.S. Targets https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/exclusive-secret-nsa-map-shows-china-cyber-attacks-us-targets-n401211 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/exclusive-secret-nsa-ma... Federal prosecutors on Wednesday announced charges against five Chinese hackers accused of breaching more than 100 companies, think tanks, universities and government agencies around the world. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/16/us-charges-chinese-hackers-cyberattacks-415954 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/16/us-charges-chinese-... US formally warns China is launching cyberattacks to steal coronavirus research https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-formally-warns-china-is-launching-cyberattacks-to-steal-coronavirus-research/ar-BB1425vC https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-formally-warns-china-is...
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Because the US has to be careful not to damage its own economy and to keep leverage for later.
  - kaliali 6y ago
    The US is damaging its economy by doing business with thieves and criminals. China needs its customers.
- nickik 6y ago
  Because its not about Cyber attacks.
qshaman 6y ago
I doubt Putin's wealth and influence are being affected. In the other hand regular russian folks might get affected in one way or another. This is the thing with US sanctions, they are just aim to harm regular people, same with Cuba, Iran, ... This undoubtedly increase the resentment of their population against the US, I fail to understand how any of this makes sense. If we don't like their government , why not target their government officials, instead?
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Targeting government officials is not really that feasible. Rich people will always find a way around sanctions for what they absolutely want to get from the US, and won't be affected otherwise. The goal is not to somehow improve the country by motivating the population to do positive political change. The goal is economically damage the country to make it's strategic situation worse. This is done by harming the citizens of the country economically.
  - qshaman 6y ago
    If that is the goal is not working, otherwise Cuba, Iran, China, Russia, etc... would have change their political system after all these years of sanctions. At the end, we here in the US are supporting legalized discrimination against regular people, in some cases keeping them from getting access to medicines, technology, and other important resources. Is sad to say the least.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      I think the goal of just making them weaker is working. Russia is weaker than before the sanctions, and Iran is even moreso. But of course, the human cost is astronomical.
mint2 6y ago
It’s strange that 95% of the comments at this moment appear to be strongly against the sanctions and displeased with the govt. Probably the reason china escapes is China has more leverage over the world than Russia, and Russia has an order of magnitude more leverage than Iran. That’s why the response diminishes in that order. But it seems like most commenters don’t want any response. Escalation has dangers, but How are they sure appeasement will go well? I mean, it literally was a major cause of WW2. Basically a tightrope act is needed. I’m not going to armchair it.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  There is no risk of "WW3". No one is about to try to invade the entirety of Europe and kill 150+ million people, enslaving a billion. These are all fairly self-limiting conflicts. China is interested in Taiwan (maybe) and a defensible path to the Pacific and Indian oceans. Russia is interested in having a buffer state against NATO. If you want to counter these objectives, then there is going to be a cost. But the cost of these objectives being realized is nowhere near that of WW2, so an armed confrontation is not worth it. The truth is that there isn't really any good solutions here. Both of these powers are in a situation where they feel that if they do not secure these strategic advantages there is a risk of disaster. The answer is either convince them that this is not the result in order to lower what cost they are willing to incur to achieve them, find a way to create an equilibrium between the US and those other powers, or use military dissuasion (which will be incredibly costly and might be impossible). In the end this is pretty much just a very difficult position. But you should not compare tactics that do not rely on the threat of massive violence to appeasement, none of these powers is willing to do anything near WW2.
  - mint2 6y ago
    I have severe disagreements with your assessment particularly the part below: “ There is no risk of "WW3". No one is about to try to invade the entirety of Europe and kill 150+ million people, enslaving a billion. These are all fairly self-limiting conflicts. China is interested in Taiwan (maybe) and a defensible path to the Pacific and Indian oceans. Russia is interested in having a buffer state against NATO.” It both severely overplays the expectations people had in the early 1930’s, hindsight is 2020. And underplays the goals of China and Russia. And it doesn’t acknowledge what’s already happened like invasions and labor camps.
avmich 6y ago
I thought the article is really missing any details, which could be briefly summarized. Then I read the executive order and found that too doesn't mention any names - whatever an appropriate department decides according to stated rules is okay. Considering that geopolitics can be interesting to HN, we don't discuss enough some topics here. In case with Russia we have something that looks like a violation - in US and by US authorities - of US laws against corruption and some international agreements. We also see conversion of Russia into a more autocratic state, which is both step back from "old times" of 1990-2000 and different from Cold War, when USSR had a different structure of goals than the Russia now.
saurik 6y ago
I hate these articles that don't really explain anything or even have a list of the entities :/. Even the White House only has a summary, but the original information comes from the Treasury Department: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0127 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0127

38 points by LinuxBender 6y ago

It really bothers me that this seems to be based on Microsoft's word. I don't trust them. I don't want MS involved with the government at all, let alone as the spark that starts a new cold war. The US and its allies have done plenty of "cyber-attacks", yet no one seems up in arms about that. PRISM was a cyber-attack on our own citizens! This whole thing smells like manufactured consent.

sudosysgen 6y ago
At this point, Russia is already maximally sanctioned, so really this is more like posturing by the US.
- jlmorton 6y ago
  In what world is Russia maximally sanctioned? Compare sanctions In Iran to Russia and I think you'll find Russia is barely sanctioned at all.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    The Russian economy crashed around as much as Iran's. But as it is Russia-US trade is basically zero. Russia simply cannot be targeted by secondary sanctions though. It's just a much bigger economy that has a much bigger impact in worldwide trade. So the maximum possible extent before governments start clamping down on secondary sanctions is much lower.
thisisnico 6y ago
You're going to have a really really tough time riding Microsoft from government, considering it really is the number 1 enterprise software solution stack, and nothing even comes close to what Microsoft does in enterprise environments. I get that the hackernews crowd is very linux-biased because most of the web-software development world is based around linux. It's easy to think that linux is everything when it's really not.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  There should be legislation that mandates the use of open source software. I am no ok with my tax dollars going to Microsoft or any private software company. I'm also not ok with the government running closed source software (that does who knows what behind the scenes). Cut off Microsoft's government revenue and focus that cash on open source development and there will be replacements for MS products in no time.

throw4738 6y ago

US should impose sanctions on Russia over presidential election irreguties and interference.

SonOfKyuss 6y ago
This is for both. Election interference is mentioned in the third sentence.
sudosysgen 6y ago
The US already imposed basically all the sanctions it can without just straight up trying to fuck over the Russian people as much as possible (the Russian people still got pretty fucked by sanctions already). Because of previous sanctions the Russian economy has a high degree of independence now and impact of sanctions is pretty limited.
- thisisnico 6y ago
  I believe Russia had signed a deal with China to trade in their own currencies, as Russia attempts to fully de-dollarize their economy and trade. This was done since 2015 when the initial sanctions where applied.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Indeed. Additionally, a lot of Europe and much of the world is not going to be willing to let US secondary sanctions be applied against Russia.
- throw4738 6y ago
  Russian citizens can still visit US! They could be spies who try to sabotage US economy. You can still stop them!
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic, but I'll assume good faith - the goal of US sanctions is to destroy the Russian economy as much as possible to weaken Russia. Russian citizens coming to the US is good for the goal of weakening the Russian economy. Russian spooks would find a way into the US no matter what.

throwaway4good 6y ago

Biden is escalating conflict with China, Russia and Iran (via Israel) all at the same time. I hope he knows what he is doing.

sudosysgen 6y ago
I mean, he doesn't really have a choice. If he didn't, the US would be perceived as having a position of weakness and it would be taken advantage of by powers that want to tilt the balance away from the US's hegemonic position.
DFHippie 6y ago
I seriously doubt Biden played any role in Israel's attack on Iran. Also, is reacting to provocation escalation? If you let other countries abuse you, is that de-escalation? I mean, it could be, but there will be people who argue both sides of both positions. I don't know exactly what would de-escalate each situation. Most likely it varies by participants involved. However, it is not obviously the case that reacting to provocations with sanctions is escalation.
throwaway4good 6y ago
Kissenger (or some other geopolitics thinker of the realist school) would say play your enemies out against each other and don't solidify an alliance between Iran, China and Russia. I don't understand what drives Biden? Is this about ideology?
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  This is a neglected effect of US sanctions. It forces all of the US's enemies to ally themselves with each other, at least economically. This is about the US wanting to look and act like they still dominate.
  - throwaway4good 6y ago
    Is about looks? The US used to be smart when it came to geopolitics.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

splithalf 6y ago

Where is the public scrutiny of Biden’s diplomatic steps as we slide towards war, perhaps more than one? Trump at least had people’s undivided attention and a lot of checks and balances. Biden seems to have a blank check and a mindset based on the world 10 years ago. Accepting the limitations of old age seems especially hard for career politicians, but it has to impact performance. Imagine hiring an 80 year old CEO. It doesn’t happen for very good reasons.

throwaway4good 6y ago
He is clearly escalating. Perhaps it is driven by a wish not to be perceived as "old and weak". If that is the case, it is not good. Currently Russian forces are amassing near Ukraine. Why put Russia in a situation where they don't care about Western reactions as it is already as bad as it can get? I mean what stick is Biden going to use if they actually invade?
- splithalf 6y ago
  I think it’s easy to underestimate small stake tit for tats and I’ve not heard a clear or reassuring enunciation of Biden’s foreign policy vision other than the “undoing” of stuff that was done under trump. Iran is a particular concern. Hopefully my fears prove unfounded. It is still very early in the new administration to make judgements one way or the other, but it does seem the conditions are ripe for new directions if not abrupt shifts in global power dynamics.
- rapjr9 6y ago
  I've been wondering if the following was part of Biden's retaliation: Three Top Russian Cybercrime Forums Hacked https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/three-top-russian-cybercrime-forums-hacked/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/03/three-top-russian-cyberc...

Dolores12 6y ago

I don't trust USA government since https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Colin_Powell_anthrax_vial._5_Feb_2003_at_the_UN.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Colin_Po... It is all so made up, innocent until proven guilty.

kaliali 6y ago

Why not sanctions over the Chinese for their cyber attacks? FBI chief slams Chinese cyberattacks on U.S., calls it ‘one of the largest transfers of wealth in human history’ https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/fbi-chief-slams-chinese-cyberattacks-against-us-hudson-institute.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/07/fbi-chief-slams-chinese-cybe... Intel officials call China "unparalleled priority" among world threats https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/intel-officials-call-china-unparalleled-priority-among-world-threats/ar-BB1fETBO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/intel-officials-call... Exclusive: Secret NSA Map Shows China Cyber Attacks on U.S. Targets https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/exclusive-secret-nsa-map-shows-china-cyber-attacks-us-targets-n401211 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/exclusive-secret-nsa-ma... Federal prosecutors on Wednesday announced charges against five Chinese hackers accused of breaching more than 100 companies, think tanks, universities and government agencies around the world. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/16/us-charges-chinese-hackers-cyberattacks-415954 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/16/us-charges-chinese-... US formally warns China is launching cyberattacks to steal coronavirus research https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-formally-warns-china-is-launching-cyberattacks-to-steal-coronavirus-research/ar-BB1425vC https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-formally-warns-china-is...

sudosysgen 6y ago
Because the US has to be careful not to damage its own economy and to keep leverage for later.
- kaliali 6y ago
  The US is damaging its economy by doing business with thieves and criminals. China needs its customers.
nickik 6y ago
Because its not about Cyber attacks.

qshaman 6y ago

I doubt Putin's wealth and influence are being affected. In the other hand regular russian folks might get affected in one way or another. This is the thing with US sanctions, they are just aim to harm regular people, same with Cuba, Iran, ... This undoubtedly increase the resentment of their population against the US, I fail to understand how any of this makes sense. If we don't like their government , why not target their government officials, instead?

sudosysgen 6y ago
Targeting government officials is not really that feasible. Rich people will always find a way around sanctions for what they absolutely want to get from the US, and won't be affected otherwise. The goal is not to somehow improve the country by motivating the population to do positive political change. The goal is economically damage the country to make it's strategic situation worse. This is done by harming the citizens of the country economically.
- qshaman 6y ago
  If that is the goal is not working, otherwise Cuba, Iran, China, Russia, etc... would have change their political system after all these years of sanctions. At the end, we here in the US are supporting legalized discrimination against regular people, in some cases keeping them from getting access to medicines, technology, and other important resources. Is sad to say the least.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I think the goal of just making them weaker is working. Russia is weaker than before the sanctions, and Iran is even moreso. But of course, the human cost is astronomical.

mint2 6y ago

It’s strange that 95% of the comments at this moment appear to be strongly against the sanctions and displeased with the govt. Probably the reason china escapes is China has more leverage over the world than Russia, and Russia has an order of magnitude more leverage than Iran. That’s why the response diminishes in that order. But it seems like most commenters don’t want any response. Escalation has dangers, but How are they sure appeasement will go well? I mean, it literally was a major cause of WW2. Basically a tightrope act is needed. I’m not going to armchair it.

sudosysgen 6y ago
There is no risk of "WW3". No one is about to try to invade the entirety of Europe and kill 150+ million people, enslaving a billion. These are all fairly self-limiting conflicts. China is interested in Taiwan (maybe) and a defensible path to the Pacific and Indian oceans. Russia is interested in having a buffer state against NATO. If you want to counter these objectives, then there is going to be a cost. But the cost of these objectives being realized is nowhere near that of WW2, so an armed confrontation is not worth it. The truth is that there isn't really any good solutions here. Both of these powers are in a situation where they feel that if they do not secure these strategic advantages there is a risk of disaster. The answer is either convince them that this is not the result in order to lower what cost they are willing to incur to achieve them, find a way to create an equilibrium between the US and those other powers, or use military dissuasion (which will be incredibly costly and might be impossible). In the end this is pretty much just a very difficult position. But you should not compare tactics that do not rely on the threat of massive violence to appeasement, none of these powers is willing to do anything near WW2.
- mint2 6y ago
  I have severe disagreements with your assessment particularly the part below: “ There is no risk of "WW3". No one is about to try to invade the entirety of Europe and kill 150+ million people, enslaving a billion. These are all fairly self-limiting conflicts. China is interested in Taiwan (maybe) and a defensible path to the Pacific and Indian oceans. Russia is interested in having a buffer state against NATO.” It both severely overplays the expectations people had in the early 1930’s, hindsight is 2020. And underplays the goals of China and Russia. And it doesn’t acknowledge what’s already happened like invasions and labor camps.

avmich 6y ago

I thought the article is really missing any details, which could be briefly summarized. Then I read the executive order and found that too doesn't mention any names - whatever an appropriate department decides according to stated rules is okay. Considering that geopolitics can be interesting to HN, we don't discuss enough some topics here. In case with Russia we have something that looks like a violation - in US and by US authorities - of US laws against corruption and some international agreements. We also see conversion of Russia into a more autocratic state, which is both step back from "old times" of 1990-2000 and different from Cold War, when USSR had a different structure of goals than the Russia now.

saurik 6y ago

I hate these articles that don't really explain anything or even have a list of the entities :/. Even the White House only has a summary, but the original information comes from the Treasury Department: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0127 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0127