4 ms·

"creating a system to train the body in preparation for anti-colonial resistance." It was actually completely the opposite, the modern yoga practices were actu

"creating a system to train the body in preparation for anti-colonial resistance." It was actually completely the opposite, the modern yoga practices were actually inspired by colonial rulers as it was time when in Europe it has become very popular and fashionable to exercise. Maharaja Krisharaja Wadiyar IV has hired Tirumalai Krishnamacharya (who btw died in 1989, just 32 years ago) to come up with somethign similar to Swedish gymnastics and Sokol movements in Slavic countries, just based on Indian traditions. It had nothing to do with colonial resistance, it was just a fashionable thing coming from the West, like later jeans or McDonalds or Starbucks (or cross-fit training for that matter)...

hzay 5y ago
Hey thanks for your comment. Just wanted to add -- if someone wants to learn more, "Yoga Body" and "Roots of Yoga" by Mark Singleton contain this information. I wish this was more well-known in indian yoga circles.
- haltingproblem 5y ago
  This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Does it not make you a little bit suspicious? What data would you seek out to falsify it? Did you factor in cultural narratives of western superiority into your thought process?
  - reason-mr 5y ago
    Singleton agrees that yoga poses as described in the material referenced by the OP here were existent far back, and that traditionally, yoga was considered far "more" than just physical poses (asana), as is evidenced by patajali, numerous historical references, the 8 limbs of yoga, etc. What he supposes, more controversially, is that more recent forms of physical asana, such those based as mysore style ashtanga yoga, were not evidenced in the original material he consulted and were subsequently added, though of course it must be said that much of this material was at least gathered, if not authored, though a colonial lens. (It must also be said that the traditional Indian method of writing on what are basically dried leaves has not done history any favors here) Therefore he assumes that those particular physical asanas (things like sun salutations, vigorous vinyasa practice, etc) were not in existence prior to the injection of more western forms such as calisthenics. He has no issue with the older material. Whether or not you believe his other main assertion is I think based on your experience with yoga, cultural appropriation, time spent in India, and related other matters. The irony of course is that, if you believe him, is that the "feel good do no good" part of yoga was added from western material and then re-exported back to west, where it because the predominant form almost to the exclusion of the others. Certainly from my experience of being in India and practicing various forms of yoga here and here, I can say that there are many forms of yoga existent in India which largely do not equate to the westernized versions primarily practiced in yoga studios here.
    - reason-mr 5y ago
      Also, on a personal opinion, I don't believe Singleton, or not in the main. Yoga is such a vast domain, super-setting normal human existence, and many things have likely been practiced and not documented over the years. I think we all need to look closely at cultural and particularly (if we are western) western biases here when dealing with this subject. Cultural appropriation is a real issue in yoga.
    - haltingproblem 5y ago
      The bizarre thing is western interpretations of Yoga focus so much on Mysore Ashtanga style. I have studied with other schools of Yoga and there are literally hundreds of lineages. It is like insisting Chicken Tikka masala and Naan are sole representations of authentic Indian food because that is what we experience in the west. Most Indian Yoga practitioners have never heard of Pratabbi Jois and Mysore Ashtanga but westerners keep holding them up as some epitome of Yoga. The insistence that sun salutations are a innovation is again bizarre as there are sutras devoted to sun saluations. In many families, children are taught sun salutations by their parents and grandparents as ancestral traditions. Even if you grant that modern forms of doing Yoga are an innovation inspired by calisthenics, why did that innovation come from European calisthenics when India has dozens of ancient arts like kalaripayattu that are practiced in Calisthenic sequences?
  - hzay 5y ago
    > This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Have you read the two books I cited, or are you speaking from ignorance?
truth_ 5y ago
No. Not completely opposite. Bengali and Punjabi groups of armed revolutionaries (wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anushilan_Samiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anushilan_Samiti) did heavily rely on yoga for exercise. The author is right. You are way off.
konaraddi 5y ago
Yoga predates colonialism and is more than gymnastics or movements, so what are the “modern yoga practices” that you claim have come from Europe?
- ivanhoe 5y ago
  It wasn't about gymnastics or movements at all. It was a vast spectrum of different technics and practices used mainly for spiritual purposes, thre were many and many "yogas" coming from different teachers. What we call yoga today, was a system invented by Tirumalai Krishnamacharya as an amalgamation of many of these ancient practices into one modern system. They were not previously widely popular and you couldn't easily learn them, most of Indians didn't know about it. What Krishnamacharya changed was that he started a school of yoga and was traveling the country and popularizing it - and the reason this was possible was that Maharajah liked the modern fitness ideas coming from the West and though it would help his people to accept these habits of paying attention to fitness, but it was time of Indian nationalism and he wanted to protect their own traditions and ways instead of just taking it from Brits, so he hired Krishnamacharya to make an authentic Indian system of training.
1024core 5y ago
Great. Now people are claiming that Yoga also came from the West to India. Maybe the idea of eating food also came to India from abroad?
- ivanhoe 5y ago
  Reading what I wrote instead of projecting your own political narratives would help a conversation, you know. Where did I claim any such thing? What came from the West was the idea (and a fashion) of fitness training as a popular pastime activity, and it was a new thing in Europe too. People just didn't do it or think of it that way before. They played sports, or practiced the skills, but the idea of doing regular exercises for health reasons only was something new. Same was in India, traditional Indian practices were about spiritual development, not training your body the way hatha yoga did it. No king or maharajah has ever before cared if his people exercise or not. Hatha yoga was Indian original system, and Krishnamacharya (on a request of Maharajah) took it and mixed different other technics (breeding practices, etc) and created a new system which was a combination of a response on modernization of India accepting good ideas from the West (that nation's fitness is something important), as well as the rise of Indian national identity and efforts of Maharajah to save the original Indian traditions from being forgotten. It was their original take on that new way of thinking about human health and life, the same way Sokol movements were Slavic take on it, not just something that "came from the West" as you try to frame it.
valarauko 5y ago
Krishnamacharya did not invent modern yoga out of whole cloth. Krishnamacharya and his disciples (ie, Jois) created the modern branch of Ashtanga Yoga, incorporating calisthenics and other physical movements within the preexisting framework of Asanas & Pranayama. Hatha Yoga, as represented here in the Yoga Pradeepika, is independent of Krishnamacharya & overwhelmingly more popular in India than Ashtanga.
haltingproblem 5y ago
There are 18 century texts in tibet showing yogis doing yoga poses. They also learnt from Sokol who came a hundred years later? This tendency to claim any thing good eastern as western is a very old trope which dates to 18-19th century ideas of superiority of Europeans. I think in the 21st century we should let it go?

hzay 5y ago

Hey thanks for your comment. Just wanted to add -- if someone wants to learn more, "Yoga Body" and "Roots of Yoga" by Mark Singleton contain this information. I wish this was more well-known in indian yoga circles.

haltingproblem 5y ago
This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Does it not make you a little bit suspicious? What data would you seek out to falsify it? Did you factor in cultural narratives of western superiority into your thought process?
- reason-mr 5y ago
  Singleton agrees that yoga poses as described in the material referenced by the OP here were existent far back, and that traditionally, yoga was considered far "more" than just physical poses (asana), as is evidenced by patajali, numerous historical references, the 8 limbs of yoga, etc. What he supposes, more controversially, is that more recent forms of physical asana, such those based as mysore style ashtanga yoga, were not evidenced in the original material he consulted and were subsequently added, though of course it must be said that much of this material was at least gathered, if not authored, though a colonial lens. (It must also be said that the traditional Indian method of writing on what are basically dried leaves has not done history any favors here) Therefore he assumes that those particular physical asanas (things like sun salutations, vigorous vinyasa practice, etc) were not in existence prior to the injection of more western forms such as calisthenics. He has no issue with the older material. Whether or not you believe his other main assertion is I think based on your experience with yoga, cultural appropriation, time spent in India, and related other matters. The irony of course is that, if you believe him, is that the "feel good do no good" part of yoga was added from western material and then re-exported back to west, where it because the predominant form almost to the exclusion of the others. Certainly from my experience of being in India and practicing various forms of yoga here and here, I can say that there are many forms of yoga existent in India which largely do not equate to the westernized versions primarily practiced in yoga studios here.
  - reason-mr 5y ago
    Also, on a personal opinion, I don't believe Singleton, or not in the main. Yoga is such a vast domain, super-setting normal human existence, and many things have likely been practiced and not documented over the years. I think we all need to look closely at cultural and particularly (if we are western) western biases here when dealing with this subject. Cultural appropriation is a real issue in yoga.
  - haltingproblem 5y ago
    The bizarre thing is western interpretations of Yoga focus so much on Mysore Ashtanga style. I have studied with other schools of Yoga and there are literally hundreds of lineages. It is like insisting Chicken Tikka masala and Naan are sole representations of authentic Indian food because that is what we experience in the west. Most Indian Yoga practitioners have never heard of Pratabbi Jois and Mysore Ashtanga but westerners keep holding them up as some epitome of Yoga. The insistence that sun salutations are a innovation is again bizarre as there are sutras devoted to sun saluations. In many families, children are taught sun salutations by their parents and grandparents as ancestral traditions. Even if you grant that modern forms of doing Yoga are an innovation inspired by calisthenics, why did that innovation come from European calisthenics when India has dozens of ancient arts like kalaripayattu that are practiced in Calisthenic sequences?
- hzay 5y ago
  > This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Have you read the two books I cited, or are you speaking from ignorance?

truth_ 5y ago

No. Not completely opposite. Bengali and Punjabi groups of armed revolutionaries (wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anushilan_Samiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anushilan_Samiti) did heavily rely on yoga for exercise. The author is right. You are way off.

konaraddi 5y ago

Yoga predates colonialism and is more than gymnastics or movements, so what are the “modern yoga practices” that you claim have come from Europe?

ivanhoe 5y ago
It wasn't about gymnastics or movements at all. It was a vast spectrum of different technics and practices used mainly for spiritual purposes, thre were many and many "yogas" coming from different teachers. What we call yoga today, was a system invented by Tirumalai Krishnamacharya as an amalgamation of many of these ancient practices into one modern system. They were not previously widely popular and you couldn't easily learn them, most of Indians didn't know about it. What Krishnamacharya changed was that he started a school of yoga and was traveling the country and popularizing it - and the reason this was possible was that Maharajah liked the modern fitness ideas coming from the West and though it would help his people to accept these habits of paying attention to fitness, but it was time of Indian nationalism and he wanted to protect their own traditions and ways instead of just taking it from Brits, so he hired Krishnamacharya to make an authentic Indian system of training.

1024core 5y ago

Great. Now people are claiming that Yoga also came from the West to India. Maybe the idea of eating food also came to India from abroad?

ivanhoe 5y ago
Reading what I wrote instead of projecting your own political narratives would help a conversation, you know. Where did I claim any such thing? What came from the West was the idea (and a fashion) of fitness training as a popular pastime activity, and it was a new thing in Europe too. People just didn't do it or think of it that way before. They played sports, or practiced the skills, but the idea of doing regular exercises for health reasons only was something new. Same was in India, traditional Indian practices were about spiritual development, not training your body the way hatha yoga did it. No king or maharajah has ever before cared if his people exercise or not. Hatha yoga was Indian original system, and Krishnamacharya (on a request of Maharajah) took it and mixed different other technics (breeding practices, etc) and created a new system which was a combination of a response on modernization of India accepting good ideas from the West (that nation's fitness is something important), as well as the rise of Indian national identity and efforts of Maharajah to save the original Indian traditions from being forgotten. It was their original take on that new way of thinking about human health and life, the same way Sokol movements were Slavic take on it, not just something that "came from the West" as you try to frame it.

valarauko 5y ago

Krishnamacharya did not invent modern yoga out of whole cloth. Krishnamacharya and his disciples (ie, Jois) created the modern branch of Ashtanga Yoga, incorporating calisthenics and other physical movements within the preexisting framework of Asanas & Pranayama. Hatha Yoga, as represented here in the Yoga Pradeepika, is independent of Krishnamacharya & overwhelmingly more popular in India than Ashtanga.

haltingproblem 5y ago

There are 18 century texts in tibet showing yogis doing yoga poses. They also learnt from Sokol who came a hundred years later? This tendency to claim any thing good eastern as western is a very old trope which dates to 18-19th century ideas of superiority of Europeans. I think in the 21st century we should let it go?