4 ms·

Why build more? There's plenty of abandoned/empty housing everywhere in big cities? Unfortunately i don't speak german so i can't give you stats about Berlin, b

Why build more? There's plenty of abandoned/empty housing everywhere in big cities? Unfortunately i don't speak german so i can't give you stats about Berlin, but in Paris alone it's >200 000 empty housing units according to official statistics. Building more is definitely the wrong solution to housing. Just remove the capitalist vampire landlords making a profit on basic human needs, and let everybody enjoy free housing for life! EDIT: Corrected stat. EDIT2: Funny to see people downvoting without argument. Are you all against Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, stating "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services" ?

Asdrubalini 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
- gjulianm 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Idealizing_conditions_of_perfect_competition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Idealizing... People can't live without housing so demand is not elastic. Plus the housing market is special regarding spatial location. Applying regular market rules as if the housing market behaved the same as, say, the screwdrivers market, does not make sense at all.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
    In 99% cases it's the government/zoning rules that prevent increasing the supply of housing not private investors not wanting to build enough.
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      And in many cases it's private investors buying houses for speculation (either by increasing rent or by using them for AirBnBs) the ones that drive prices up, not an increase of supply. In any case, my point is that applying market rules to housing does not make sense, it's not a competitive market at all and never can be.
    - southerntofu 6y ago
      That's just pro-landlord propaganda but i've never seen actual evidence of that. I have seen evidence though that landlords and public powers conspire against the population to gentrify neighborhoods and drive prices up, leaving tons of apartments empty so they can make more money speculating.
    - goodpoint 6y ago
      Absolutely not. Investors fight with tooth and nails to keep the prices up because it's more profitable than building.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      It is more nuanced; the private investors want to make profit as quick as possible, they do not care about long term development of the area (many politicians either, they might not be in their position after next election). The private investors won't do infrastructure either - it is expensive - so they want to build where the infrastructure is already in place. So that's why we see trying to increase density. So the zoning rules are there as a conterweight to this.
pharmakom 6y ago
How is it that rents are so high and yet there are empty housing units? Don’t landlords want the money?
- gjulianm 6y ago
  They might think it's more profitable to wait so that they can sell or rent the unit later at a higher price.
- MauranKilom 6y ago
  Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Saves you from having to deal with the tenants and saves you tons of worries/busywork like: - How tedious will it be to find suitable tenants (do you want to go through 1000 emails)? - Will they make a mess of the place? - Will they call you at random times to complain about neighbors? - Will you have to organize and deal with mechanics when e.g. the heating breaks? And so on. If property prices go up x% per year, buying housing is a great investment even if you leave it empty. And yes, this is a serious problem in larger cities, where investors (domestic or even foreign) just buy up housing without any intention to let people live there, exacerbating the problem. To be clear, I am just a tenant, but the above incentives for investors are straightforward to see.
  - pharmakom 6y ago
    > Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Because then you get the property price gains and the rental income on top! I don’t doubt this is happening, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.
    - southerntofu 6y ago
      As an individual person with a heart, it's hard to wrap one's head around. But the problem is landowners are usually very rich and soulless, when not actual corporations who have nothing human at all. To them, an empty apartment is just a line in a spreadsheet that will bring them money sooner or later. Renting the apartments would be more trouble for them, despite bringing in a little more money.
artwr 6y ago
Just curious, would you happen to have a reference for Paris handy?
- southerntofu 6y ago
  You can find an article on paris.fr website claiming 17% empty housing in Paris (and rising) in 2019 : https://www.paris.fr/pages/le-saviez-vous-17-des-logements-parisiens-sont-inoccupes-6531 https://www.paris.fr/pages/le-saviez-vous-17-des-logements-p... So my bad for giving a wrong number the >1 million is in fact 3 millions for the whole of France (~8%). For Paris it's "only" ~240000 (according to 2019 paris.fr numbers) which is on the scale of one empty apartment in the heart of Paris for every mishoused person ("sans domicile fixe") in the whole of France, according to official statistics (which may be too optimistic on the number of mishoused people). https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3572856 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3572856 According to INSEE (official statistics), between 1990 and 2015, population has grown 0.4%, housing units have grown 1%, while abandoned housing units grew 2.8%. Now may be a good time to say that secondary housing (vacation houses for the privileged elite that can afford it) is NOT abandoned housing according to these stats.

Asdrubalini 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

gjulianm 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Idealizing_conditions_of_perfect_competition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Idealizing... People can't live without housing so demand is not elastic. Plus the housing market is special regarding spatial location. Applying regular market rules as if the housing market behaved the same as, say, the screwdrivers market, does not make sense at all.
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  In 99% cases it's the government/zoning rules that prevent increasing the supply of housing not private investors not wanting to build enough.
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    And in many cases it's private investors buying houses for speculation (either by increasing rent or by using them for AirBnBs) the ones that drive prices up, not an increase of supply. In any case, my point is that applying market rules to housing does not make sense, it's not a competitive market at all and never can be.
  - southerntofu 6y ago
    That's just pro-landlord propaganda but i've never seen actual evidence of that. I have seen evidence though that landlords and public powers conspire against the population to gentrify neighborhoods and drive prices up, leaving tons of apartments empty so they can make more money speculating.
  - goodpoint 6y ago
    Absolutely not. Investors fight with tooth and nails to keep the prices up because it's more profitable than building.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    It is more nuanced; the private investors want to make profit as quick as possible, they do not care about long term development of the area (many politicians either, they might not be in their position after next election). The private investors won't do infrastructure either - it is expensive - so they want to build where the infrastructure is already in place. So that's why we see trying to increase density. So the zoning rules are there as a conterweight to this.

pharmakom 6y ago

How is it that rents are so high and yet there are empty housing units? Don’t landlords want the money?

gjulianm 6y ago
They might think it's more profitable to wait so that they can sell or rent the unit later at a higher price.
MauranKilom 6y ago
Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Saves you from having to deal with the tenants and saves you tons of worries/busywork like: - How tedious will it be to find suitable tenants (do you want to go through 1000 emails)? - Will they make a mess of the place? - Will they call you at random times to complain about neighbors? - Will you have to organize and deal with mechanics when e.g. the heating breaks? And so on. If property prices go up x% per year, buying housing is a great investment even if you leave it empty. And yes, this is a serious problem in larger cities, where investors (domestic or even foreign) just buy up housing without any intention to let people live there, exacerbating the problem. To be clear, I am just a tenant, but the above incentives for investors are straightforward to see.
- pharmakom 6y ago
  > Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Because then you get the property price gains and the rental income on top! I don’t doubt this is happening, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.
  - southerntofu 6y ago
    As an individual person with a heart, it's hard to wrap one's head around. But the problem is landowners are usually very rich and soulless, when not actual corporations who have nothing human at all. To them, an empty apartment is just a line in a spreadsheet that will bring them money sooner or later. Renting the apartments would be more trouble for them, despite bringing in a little more money.

artwr 6y ago

Just curious, would you happen to have a reference for Paris handy?

southerntofu 6y ago
You can find an article on paris.fr website claiming 17% empty housing in Paris (and rising) in 2019 : https://www.paris.fr/pages/le-saviez-vous-17-des-logements-parisiens-sont-inoccupes-6531 https://www.paris.fr/pages/le-saviez-vous-17-des-logements-p... So my bad for giving a wrong number the >1 million is in fact 3 millions for the whole of France (~8%). For Paris it's "only" ~240000 (according to 2019 paris.fr numbers) which is on the scale of one empty apartment in the heart of Paris for every mishoused person ("sans domicile fixe") in the whole of France, according to official statistics (which may be too optimistic on the number of mishoused people). https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3572856 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/3572856 According to INSEE (official statistics), between 1990 and 2015, population has grown 0.4%, housing units have grown 1%, while abandoned housing units grew 2.8%. Now may be a good time to say that secondary housing (vacation houses for the privileged elite that can afford it) is NOT abandoned housing according to these stats.