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Well in recent months the Tesla Giga Berlin factory has shown just how fast construction can take place if the people in power actually want it to happen. Build

by sabjut 5y ago

Well in recent months the Tesla Giga Berlin factory has shown just how fast construction can take place if the people in power actually want it to happen. Building new housing units in the city slows the increase in value of existing real estate, which is why property owners are not rushing to allow the construction of new structures. Lobbyism is a powerful force in real estate.

that_guy_iain 5y ago
To be fair, it's not he people in power it's the construction companies. The amount of workers on a building site in Germany is way lower than in other places. And then you get the ones where they put 2-3 people for 2-3 weeks every 6 months.
- corty 5y ago
  Depends. Public construction is very different from private and industrial construction. As the industry pays well, on time and demands results, their construction sites are staffed to the fullest amount possible and complete astonishingly fast. Public construction on the other hand goes with the cheapest bidder, so doesn't pay that well. Also, the state will only pay after a lengthy process of inspections and trying to find something wrong with the finished building. So lots of companies just avoid public bids, because they cannot afford to finance all the materials and work pay for the duration of the build. Those that can afford it are companies that specialize in public construction sites, usually designed to be able to go bankrupt at the first sign of trouble. Generally, in a public construction site, all contractors are lowest bidders. Some do intentionally bid lower than cost to get the contract. What they then try to do to recoup their cost is to try to find some problem that wasn't spelled out in the bidding, or to wait for some change of plans or regulations. Because they then can bill a lot more for the additional work and material necessary to fix the problem, or hold up the construction site in lengthy court proceedings. Because everyone knows that something like that will happen at some point, they intentionally go as slow as possible, waiting for the order to drop everything and wait for the courts. Because if they are quick and invest a lot of work and material, they might not survive the delay.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    > As the industry pays well, on time and demands results, their construction sites are staffed to the fullest amount possible and complete astonishingly fast. In my opinion, compared to other countries things that would be built within 8-12 months take 2 years.
    - corty 5y ago
      Yes, that might be the case. I'm just comparing to the average German construction site.
pizzapill 5y ago
The factory is located somewhere in Brandenburg. There is a difference in building a factory on farmland vs. a house block in a large city.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
This is not the greatest example. There is still no final permit for the whole thing, only temporary ones. It is embarrassing and a textbook case of pointless German bureaucracy, misguided environmentalism and NIMBYism.
corty 5y ago
The Gigafactory near Berlin is still on a temporary permit, meaning that they might have to tear it down again (at least in large parts) if the bureaucracy finds a nit to pick. There is still the possibility of more problems due to environmental protection regulations for the surrounding forest and the water supply. All in all, while some politicians may have suggested that the Gigafactory is an example of a fast project they made possible, they no longer do so. Because actually it is a perfect example of everything being regulated to death, dog-slow bureaucracy and crazy risks you have to take as a business if you want things done fast. Where "fast" is still slow compared to the rest of the world. No housing construction will ever go to the lengths Tesla did in terms of risk for a fast construction. Housing investment is notoriously risk-averse in any case.

by sabjut 5y ago

that_guy_iain 5y ago

To be fair, it's not he people in power it's the construction companies. The amount of workers on a building site in Germany is way lower than in other places. And then you get the ones where they put 2-3 people for 2-3 weeks every 6 months.

corty 5y ago
Depends. Public construction is very different from private and industrial construction. As the industry pays well, on time and demands results, their construction sites are staffed to the fullest amount possible and complete astonishingly fast. Public construction on the other hand goes with the cheapest bidder, so doesn't pay that well. Also, the state will only pay after a lengthy process of inspections and trying to find something wrong with the finished building. So lots of companies just avoid public bids, because they cannot afford to finance all the materials and work pay for the duration of the build. Those that can afford it are companies that specialize in public construction sites, usually designed to be able to go bankrupt at the first sign of trouble. Generally, in a public construction site, all contractors are lowest bidders. Some do intentionally bid lower than cost to get the contract. What they then try to do to recoup their cost is to try to find some problem that wasn't spelled out in the bidding, or to wait for some change of plans or regulations. Because they then can bill a lot more for the additional work and material necessary to fix the problem, or hold up the construction site in lengthy court proceedings. Because everyone knows that something like that will happen at some point, they intentionally go as slow as possible, waiting for the order to drop everything and wait for the courts. Because if they are quick and invest a lot of work and material, they might not survive the delay.
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  > As the industry pays well, on time and demands results, their construction sites are staffed to the fullest amount possible and complete astonishingly fast. In my opinion, compared to other countries things that would be built within 8-12 months take 2 years.
  - corty 5y ago
    Yes, that might be the case. I'm just comparing to the average German construction site.

pizzapill 5y ago

The factory is located somewhere in Brandenburg. There is a difference in building a factory on farmland vs. a house block in a large city.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

This is not the greatest example. There is still no final permit for the whole thing, only temporary ones. It is embarrassing and a textbook case of pointless German bureaucracy, misguided environmentalism and NIMBYism.

corty 5y ago

The Gigafactory near Berlin is still on a temporary permit, meaning that they might have to tear it down again (at least in large parts) if the bureaucracy finds a nit to pick. There is still the possibility of more problems due to environmental protection regulations for the surrounding forest and the water supply. All in all, while some politicians may have suggested that the Gigafactory is an example of a fast project they made possible, they no longer do so. Because actually it is a perfect example of everything being regulated to death, dog-slow bureaucracy and crazy risks you have to take as a business if you want things done fast. Where "fast" is still slow compared to the rest of the world. No housing construction will ever go to the lengths Tesla did in terms of risk for a fast construction. Housing investment is notoriously risk-averse in any case.