5 ms·

That’s not how medical research works.

arcticbull 5y ago
Definitely, however it's also disingenuous to say that we have no idea what the long term consequences of shrooms are just because there hasn't been a formal study recently. There's tons of people doing it regularly - for millennia actually, studies from the before-times and a large incentive by the mainstream anti-drug folks to dramatize any adverse consequences. Should there be studies? Sure. Are we pretty sure it's safe? Yep. Safe enough to legalize? Oh most definitely. Certainly until proven otherwise.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  The way to get people to agree with legalization is to follow rigorous medical study procedures, not handwave about it being obviously fine. For the record I think they should be legalized.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I tend to believe that unless proven otherwise, substances should be legal. The burden of proof IMO is on the folks who want to restrain behavior. [edit] I don't think that producing a study that shows a lack of harm is going to change anyone's mind. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that. I think if this was based on a genuine fear, the study would have preceded the prohibition. This feels more like running ourselves in circles to collect evidence, Lucy and the football style. We already know the LD-50 of mushrooms is 17kg of fresh mushroom for an average size human lol.
    - ceilingcorner 5y ago
      I agree but I’m talking tactically. Legalization requires convincing people that don’t think the same way, and the best method for doing that is by rigorous medical study. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        > Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological. Haha, ok, well, in that case, on what basis were drugs banned? Specifically psychedelics. > We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place. The current attitude is "drugs are bad" because of childhood education programs. Drugs are bad because they're illegal. You've seen the PSAs. It was never evidence based to begin with, then the "puritans" (DARE) switched to youth indoctrination. It's been so long now that there "must be a good reason." It was never logical, or evidence based, and it remains illogical, and not evidence based. Bringing evidence to an illogical conversation IMO is like bringing an inflatable flamingo to a fancy dinner. People will look quizzically, and you won't change minds. But hey, here's hoping I'm wrong. After all when Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 all the negative health factors and societal factors associated with drug use fell off a cliff -- and usage did not increase. That's all the evidence I need to follow suit.
        ceilingcorner 5y ago
        That isn’t what your comment said. You said “no amount of evidence is going to change it”. We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place.
        tremon 5y ago
        But if the current attitudes aren't based on evidence, what makes you think that more evidence will change those attitudes? That's what the GP is asking.
    - bigfudge 5y ago
      > We already know the LD-50 of mushrooms is 17kg of fresh mushroom for an average size human lol. Curious as to how we know... has anyone ever OD'd on psylocibin?
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    We don't have rigorous experimental data on alcohol or nicotine either.

Definitely, however it's also disingenuous to say that we have no idea what the long term consequences of shrooms are just because there hasn't been a formal study recently. There's tons of people doing it regularly - for millennia actually, studies from the before-times and a large incentive by the mainstream anti-drug folks to dramatize any adverse consequences. Should there be studies? Sure. Are we pretty sure it's safe? Yep. Safe enough to legalize? Oh most definitely. Certainly until proven otherwise.

ceilingcorner 5y ago
The way to get people to agree with legalization is to follow rigorous medical study procedures, not handwave about it being obviously fine. For the record I think they should be legalized.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I tend to believe that unless proven otherwise, substances should be legal. The burden of proof IMO is on the folks who want to restrain behavior. [edit] I don't think that producing a study that shows a lack of harm is going to change anyone's mind. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that. I think if this was based on a genuine fear, the study would have preceded the prohibition. This feels more like running ourselves in circles to collect evidence, Lucy and the football style. We already know the LD-50 of mushrooms is 17kg of fresh mushroom for an average size human lol.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    I agree but I’m talking tactically. Legalization requires convincing people that don’t think the same way, and the best method for doing that is by rigorous medical study. The prohibition is puritanical and ideological, no amount of evidence is going to change that Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > Your insistence that this is the case is itself ideological. Haha, ok, well, in that case, on what basis were drugs banned? Specifically psychedelics. > We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place. The current attitude is "drugs are bad" because of childhood education programs. Drugs are bad because they're illegal. You've seen the PSAs. It was never evidence based to begin with, then the "puritans" (DARE) switched to youth indoctrination. It's been so long now that there "must be a good reason." It was never logical, or evidence based, and it remains illogical, and not evidence based. Bringing evidence to an illogical conversation IMO is like bringing an inflatable flamingo to a fancy dinner. People will look quizzically, and you won't change minds. But hey, here's hoping I'm wrong. After all when Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 all the negative health factors and societal factors associated with drug use fell off a cliff -- and usage did not increase. That's all the evidence I need to follow suit.
      - ceilingcorner 5y ago
        That isn’t what your comment said. You said “no amount of evidence is going to change it”. We’re talking about current attitudes, not the reasons why they were banned in the first place.
        tremon 5y ago
        But if the current attitudes aren't based on evidence, what makes you think that more evidence will change those attitudes? That's what the GP is asking.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    > We already know the LD-50 of mushrooms is 17kg of fresh mushroom for an average size human lol. Curious as to how we know... has anyone ever OD'd on psylocibin?
- bigfudge 5y ago
  We don't have rigorous experimental data on alcohol or nicotine either.