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Welcome to the new world where tech companies rule. Where moral standards are gone. Where local laws do not apply. This shit is happening a lot. Artists on You

Welcome to the new world where tech companies rule. Where moral standards are gone. Where local laws do not apply. This shit is happening a lot. Artists on Youtube, App builders on Playstore/iOS. Marketing companies on Google search, pretty women on Instagram, political men on Facebook or Twitter. I feel for you. Hope it gets alright.

blowski 6y ago
Remove the tech-specific words from your comment, and you would probably find people saying the same thing throughout all of history.
- dx034 6y ago
  Not sure if large car companies or clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers. This has only become possible with digital services where companies refuse to acknowledge local laws and regulation.
  - halfdan 6y ago
    Car companies selling cars exceeding allowed emission levels and clothes manufacturers exploiting child labour in third world countries? Sure there were "fines" but as usual that was pocket change them..
    - varispeed 6y ago
      Cost of doing business factored in the product price...
  - blowski 6y ago
    For most of history, customers didn't have the kind of legal rights they have now. Businesses could refuse to serve you, warranties were non-existent until late 1800s. And even when consumers did get rights, there have been constant stories in newspapers of "big companies trampling on the rights of consumers".
  - kube-system 6y ago
    If you want an example of ignoring local law, how about the East India Company? They formed their own army, took over part of India, and set up their own government.
    - blowski 6y ago
      Exactly. If "putting innocent people in chains and enslaving them in a foreign country" doesn't count as ignoring people's legal rights, I'm not sure what does.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers Clothes manufacturers have been notorious for mistreating their employees, though; e.g. Triangle Shirtwaist.
  - gumby 6y ago
    > Not sure if large car companies or clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers. Ha, check out “unsafe at any speed” the book that launched Ralph Nader and the government’s role in consumer safety. Or “The Jungle”, the book that launched food safety regulations (and some worker safety) a century ago. Certain politicians and certain companies decry “regulation” generically but there are good reasons behind almost all of it.
- akudha 6y ago
  That might be true, but nobody in history had as much power/reach as these tech companies.
  - blowski 6y ago
    The East India Trading Company. Rockefeller.
    - TakuYam 6y ago
      Genghis Khan, Alexander of Macedonia
dx034 6y ago
It's really frustrating. I've been trying for months to get access to a suspended twitter account that was suspended without informing me or giving a reason. The tickets get ignored and their support doesn't respond on Twitter. They also ignore GDPR (which would give me the right to have my data deleted). I have no idea what to do. The account isn't important but it shows up prominently on Google as a suspended account which isn't great. Any small company ignoring privacy laws would get into trouble. If you're as big as Twitter or Facebook you can just ignore laws and get away with it..
- sofixa 6y ago
  > They also ignore GDPR (which would give me the right to have my data deleted Report them to your local ICO.
macspoofing 6y ago
>Welcome to the new world where tech companies rule. I understand what you're saying but, speaking specifically to this case (which is a little different than YouTube censorship), I think this highlights the dangers of outsourcing your critical infrastructure to third-party SAAS companies without a mitigation plan. As companies, we have to get into the habit of putting together mitigations plans for times when the outsourced SAAS disruption has significant business impact. Here, Twilio blocked the account of this vendor, but Twilio could have gone bankrupt, or they themselves could have had a significant disruption and the end-result would have been the same. Was there a plan put in place for that? If Twilio isn't responsive with support, are any of their competitors better? Maybe it was a better idea to go with a smaller or more expensive competitor but one who gives you a dedicated account manager you can call anytime if something goes wrong. Twilio fucked up here, but ultimately the responsibility for business continuity rests with OP. They can't offload that responsibility on Twilio because if Twilio fucks up, Twilio doesn't suffer the consequences.
- manigandham 6y ago
  The entire value of these companies is in the outsourcing of the entire problem. It's incredibly hard to have multiple vendors if you're using specific or advanced functionality, and if you're hosting a failover yourself then you might as well just use that instead.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    >It's incredibly hard to have multiple vendors if you're using specific or advanced functionality, and if you're hosting a failover yourself then you might as well just use that instead. I'm not suggesting any specific solution and I didn't even suggest they run their own infrastructure. There are good reasons to outsource these kinds of operations. But what happened was the company got the rug pulled underneath their feet and realized they didn't know how to contact their critical supplier. That's not good and that's their failure in this mess. I don't understand the resistance to identifying and mitigating business risks. Honestly.
    - 6y ago
Throwawayaerlei 6y ago
"What these corporations are doing is literally destroying the basis for a developed economy.... "In countries with strong rule of law: "1. Property rights over land, equipment, and personal items are clear and protected by law. "2. Contracts between people, businesses, and the government are effectively enforced by the legal system. "3. Political accountability is high and corruption is low. "4. Business regulations are clear and enforced in a transparent manner. "In such environments people make long-term investments and build large organizations. In contrast, if the property rights and contracts are not enforced and the business regulations are not clear, most of the economy consists of small family owned firms with little modern equipment. A high-tech, prosperous economy would not develop. "Effectively, there are no contracts anymore in the digital economy. There is no predictability anymore. There is no accountability. There is no responsibility. There are no requirements for performance anymore. In sum, the US digital economy is rapidly becoming the equivalent of a third-world economy, complete with crony capitalism and digital robber barons."

blowski 6y ago

Remove the tech-specific words from your comment, and you would probably find people saying the same thing throughout all of history.

dx034 6y ago
Not sure if large car companies or clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers. This has only become possible with digital services where companies refuse to acknowledge local laws and regulation.
- halfdan 6y ago
  Car companies selling cars exceeding allowed emission levels and clothes manufacturers exploiting child labour in third world countries? Sure there were "fines" but as usual that was pocket change them..
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Cost of doing business factored in the product price...
- blowski 6y ago
  For most of history, customers didn't have the kind of legal rights they have now. Businesses could refuse to serve you, warranties were non-existent until late 1800s. And even when consumers did get rights, there have been constant stories in newspapers of "big companies trampling on the rights of consumers".
- kube-system 6y ago
  If you want an example of ignoring local law, how about the East India Company? They formed their own army, took over part of India, and set up their own government.
  - blowski 6y ago
    Exactly. If "putting innocent people in chains and enslaving them in a foreign country" doesn't count as ignoring people's legal rights, I'm not sure what does.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers Clothes manufacturers have been notorious for mistreating their employees, though; e.g. Triangle Shirtwaist.
- gumby 6y ago
  > Not sure if large car companies or clothes manufacturers (just two examples of large companies) were ever able to ignore legal rights of their customers. Ha, check out “unsafe at any speed” the book that launched Ralph Nader and the government’s role in consumer safety. Or “The Jungle”, the book that launched food safety regulations (and some worker safety) a century ago. Certain politicians and certain companies decry “regulation” generically but there are good reasons behind almost all of it.
akudha 6y ago
That might be true, but nobody in history had as much power/reach as these tech companies.
- blowski 6y ago
  The East India Trading Company. Rockefeller.
  - TakuYam 6y ago
    Genghis Khan, Alexander of Macedonia

dx034 6y ago

It's really frustrating. I've been trying for months to get access to a suspended twitter account that was suspended without informing me or giving a reason. The tickets get ignored and their support doesn't respond on Twitter. They also ignore GDPR (which would give me the right to have my data deleted). I have no idea what to do. The account isn't important but it shows up prominently on Google as a suspended account which isn't great. Any small company ignoring privacy laws would get into trouble. If you're as big as Twitter or Facebook you can just ignore laws and get away with it..

sofixa 6y ago
> They also ignore GDPR (which would give me the right to have my data deleted Report them to your local ICO.

macspoofing 6y ago

>Welcome to the new world where tech companies rule. I understand what you're saying but, speaking specifically to this case (which is a little different than YouTube censorship), I think this highlights the dangers of outsourcing your critical infrastructure to third-party SAAS companies without a mitigation plan. As companies, we have to get into the habit of putting together mitigations plans for times when the outsourced SAAS disruption has significant business impact. Here, Twilio blocked the account of this vendor, but Twilio could have gone bankrupt, or they themselves could have had a significant disruption and the end-result would have been the same. Was there a plan put in place for that? If Twilio isn't responsive with support, are any of their competitors better? Maybe it was a better idea to go with a smaller or more expensive competitor but one who gives you a dedicated account manager you can call anytime if something goes wrong. Twilio fucked up here, but ultimately the responsibility for business continuity rests with OP. They can't offload that responsibility on Twilio because if Twilio fucks up, Twilio doesn't suffer the consequences.

manigandham 6y ago
The entire value of these companies is in the outsourcing of the entire problem. It's incredibly hard to have multiple vendors if you're using specific or advanced functionality, and if you're hosting a failover yourself then you might as well just use that instead.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >It's incredibly hard to have multiple vendors if you're using specific or advanced functionality, and if you're hosting a failover yourself then you might as well just use that instead. I'm not suggesting any specific solution and I didn't even suggest they run their own infrastructure. There are good reasons to outsource these kinds of operations. But what happened was the company got the rug pulled underneath their feet and realized they didn't know how to contact their critical supplier. That's not good and that's their failure in this mess. I don't understand the resistance to identifying and mitigating business risks. Honestly.
  - 6y ago

Throwawayaerlei 6y ago

"What these corporations are doing is literally destroying the basis for a developed economy.... "In countries with strong rule of law: "1. Property rights over land, equipment, and personal items are clear and protected by law. "2. Contracts between people, businesses, and the government are effectively enforced by the legal system. "3. Political accountability is high and corruption is low. "4. Business regulations are clear and enforced in a transparent manner. "In such environments people make long-term investments and build large organizations. In contrast, if the property rights and contracts are not enforced and the business regulations are not clear, most of the economy consists of small family owned firms with little modern equipment. A high-tech, prosperous economy would not develop. "Effectively, there are no contracts anymore in the digital economy. There is no predictability anymore. There is no accountability. There is no responsibility. There are no requirements for performance anymore. In sum, the US digital economy is rapidly becoming the equivalent of a third-world economy, complete with crony capitalism and digital robber barons."