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I'd push back that a lot of the anti-political-activism stuff I see from EA people seems even more hand-wavy. Political activism has such enormous potential tha

I'd push back that a lot of the anti-political-activism stuff I see from EA people seems even more hand-wavy. Political activism has such enormous potential that any argument against it needs to be exceptionally strong. Now don't get me wrong, there are totally bits of conventional wisdom in political activism that I think are the exact kind of ineffective-but-makes-me-feel-good stuff that drive EA people nuts. I have hot takes about the oversaturation of phone-banking and door-knocking in presidential elections (although I'm searching for more evidence one way or the other before I make that argument in earnest). But the problem with arguments like "there's a non-ignorable chance that a military strongman could hijack our movement" is that that's like, three orders off from the kinds of problems that actually happen when you try to do political activism. I'm sure some activists are worried about that in the abstract, but the way more salient issues have to do with things like fundraising, cultivating movements in places where they don't exist yet, vetting candidates (particularly in local races where people come out of nowhere), forming coalitions between groups that don't think they have much in common, etc.

pcstl 6y ago
>that's like, three orders off from the kinds of problems that actually happen when you try to do political activism I think this just goes to show how people who live in places with stable political institutions take them for granted and don't value what they have. That you believe that political agitators who aim to destabilize institutions will face no problem greater than issues with fundraising or movement-building just goes to show that the conditions you live in are exceptionally stable. In most of the world, movements for change being taken over by malicious, self-interested players is a very real, very serious risk.
- Uehreka 6y ago
  So, political activism doesn't necessarily mean ending capitalism and demolishing the system. Like, granted, when you play with matches you risk getting burned. But a lot of effective political activism is more about getting petition signatures and pressuring the state legislature to pass an ordinance banning factories from pumping heavy metals into the water table. Stuff that makes a difference, but is monumentally boring (and admittedly, stuff I personally haven't done enough of). [Edit - And before someone makes a dig about environmentalism-for-its-own-sake: In the above hypothetical, the factories are near an aquifer and there are concerns about drinking water.]
  - solveit 6y ago
    And EA isn't against this kind of thing, but political activism often tends not to be low-hanging because people are very invested in political activism. If you can set up an organization that can consistently identify low-hanging, high-impact activism, then EA will be all for it.
  - pcstl 6y ago
    Well, political activism doesn't have to be about that, but EA isn't opposed to activism per se. EA is just, by its very nature, opposed to political activism that believes the only way we might make things any better is demolishing the current system and somehow building the perfect one from scratch - because this kind of activism tends to entail the belief that any kind of charity-based solution is a bad thing because it might make people stay longer under the unacceptable system instead of revolting as they rightly should.
orangecat 6y ago
Political activism has such enormous potential For good and bad, and it's rarely obvious which policies are "correct". For example, it's possible for two entirely well-meaning people to come to opposite conclusions on issues like nuclear power or international trade. They could both spend their time and money trying to influence governments and end up with a net effect of zero (really negative after transaction costs), or they could pay for malaria nets and almost certainly save lives.
- morsch 6y ago
  Leaving the politics to the non-well-meaning people? I suppose this wouldn't change much if their influence were a net zero, too, but I don't believe it is.
  - fighterpilot 6y ago
    The problem is most (not all) political activism is rather domestic, symbolic, parochial and tribal compared to the possibility of reducing millions of out-of-sight preventable deaths in poorer countries. And the people engaged in it don't realize that, their focus is on what's been in the domestic news cycle and what's important to their immediate surroundings.

pcstl 6y ago

>that's like, three orders off from the kinds of problems that actually happen when you try to do political activism I think this just goes to show how people who live in places with stable political institutions take them for granted and don't value what they have. That you believe that political agitators who aim to destabilize institutions will face no problem greater than issues with fundraising or movement-building just goes to show that the conditions you live in are exceptionally stable. In most of the world, movements for change being taken over by malicious, self-interested players is a very real, very serious risk.

Uehreka 6y ago
So, political activism doesn't necessarily mean ending capitalism and demolishing the system. Like, granted, when you play with matches you risk getting burned. But a lot of effective political activism is more about getting petition signatures and pressuring the state legislature to pass an ordinance banning factories from pumping heavy metals into the water table. Stuff that makes a difference, but is monumentally boring (and admittedly, stuff I personally haven't done enough of). [Edit - And before someone makes a dig about environmentalism-for-its-own-sake: In the above hypothetical, the factories are near an aquifer and there are concerns about drinking water.]
- solveit 6y ago
  And EA isn't against this kind of thing, but political activism often tends not to be low-hanging because people are very invested in political activism. If you can set up an organization that can consistently identify low-hanging, high-impact activism, then EA will be all for it.
- pcstl 6y ago
  Well, political activism doesn't have to be about that, but EA isn't opposed to activism per se. EA is just, by its very nature, opposed to political activism that believes the only way we might make things any better is demolishing the current system and somehow building the perfect one from scratch - because this kind of activism tends to entail the belief that any kind of charity-based solution is a bad thing because it might make people stay longer under the unacceptable system instead of revolting as they rightly should.

orangecat 6y ago

Political activism has such enormous potential For good and bad, and it's rarely obvious which policies are "correct". For example, it's possible for two entirely well-meaning people to come to opposite conclusions on issues like nuclear power or international trade. They could both spend their time and money trying to influence governments and end up with a net effect of zero (really negative after transaction costs), or they could pay for malaria nets and almost certainly save lives.

morsch 6y ago
Leaving the politics to the non-well-meaning people? I suppose this wouldn't change much if their influence were a net zero, too, but I don't believe it is.
- fighterpilot 6y ago
  The problem is most (not all) political activism is rather domestic, symbolic, parochial and tribal compared to the possibility of reducing millions of out-of-sight preventable deaths in poorer countries. And the people engaged in it don't realize that, their focus is on what's been in the domestic news cycle and what's important to their immediate surroundings.