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> it is absolutely impossible to hide a transaction What about tumblers?

by pier25 6y ago

not_kurt_godel 6y ago
Tumblers don't hide transactions, they just obfuscate them. Afaik the coins can still be easily traced programmatically.
- Salgat 6y ago
  That depends on how the tumbler is implemented. If the transaction from sender to receiver is instant and from a single address to another single address, well then yeah it's obvious. But if you batch the transactions of thousands of users over the course of a day for example, and make sure to split the amount to send to multiple addresses with random values, now the only thing that you can correlate is that one of the thousands of senders might also be one of the seemingly tens of thousands of receivers. If the tumbler is allowed to spread it out over multiple days or weeks or even months, well then good luck ever correlating the sender and receiver.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
They just shuffle coins around. Still possible to track. It's also obvious to everyone watching that the shuffling service was used. Exchanges have already started to refuse coins that passed through these services. They might as well be tainted. The real solution is to drop bitcoin and use better technology. Monero looks like the best option right now. Private transactions, concealed amounts, fungibility, low fees and fast transaction processing. It's everything bitcoin was meant to be.
- deckard1 6y ago
  > The real solution is to drop bitcoin and use better technology. Walk into WalMart with cash and buy a prepaid gift card. Voilà. And the best part: it works literally everywhere. Both the buying and the using. Unlike flavor-of-the-week crypto. Though, let's be real for a second, the ways to screw up from this point are many and varied. Accidentally use your home IP address to make the purchase? Oops. Did the naughty thing at Starbucks and there just happened to be a CCTV cam on you? Oh noes. Probably best to stay offline, use cash everywhere, limit your banking, turn off your smartphone, and move from location to location constantly. Or just give up. > O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
  - geoduck14 6y ago
    The Walmart gift card will only get you so far. You can't: buy a fancy boat, car, or house. You can't pay for your kids school supplies (or school tuition), or treat your wife to a fancy hair do. The money laundering laws try to stop people dealing in tens of thousands of dollars, who LIVE off of the money.
    - t0mas88 6y ago
      I think you could buy a prepaid Visa? Or is that not a thing anymore?
      - geoduck14 6y ago
        Hmm.... That IS a thing, and I think they have limits up to $5k. Mind you, if you try to buy anything too big, you'll get put on a list somewhere. Also, something to keep in mind, most financial companies have a "Know Your Customer" stage where they verify you employment and income. If you are trying to buy a $20k thing, and your only income is "a stack of Visa Gift Cards", you're going to have a bad day.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    It’s a pretty obvious strategy that is scrutinized already. Try buying $500 gift cards routinely,
  - mekster 6y ago
    So, you're saying a hacker controlling an innocent person's machine can easily get away with it because law enforcement would catch the innocent person instead? Or letting someone else to do that in Starbucks by buying him off would be quite easy.
Taniwha 6y ago
You have to find some clean bitcoins to tumble them with .... why would someone with clean coins tumble theirs with dirty ones?
- pier25 6y ago
  Do online casinos check whether some coins are dirty?
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    Pretty sure I'd be mad if I gave a casino $100k in clean money, then checked back out with $100k that included $50k worth of marked bills from a bank heist ....

> it is absolutely impossible to hide a transaction What about tumblers?

by pier25 6y ago

> it is absolutely impossible to hide a transaction What about tumblers?

Tumblers don't hide transactions, they just obfuscate them. Afaik the coins can still be easily traced programmatically.

Salgat 6y ago
That depends on how the tumbler is implemented. If the transaction from sender to receiver is instant and from a single address to another single address, well then yeah it's obvious. But if you batch the transactions of thousands of users over the course of a day for example, and make sure to split the amount to send to multiple addresses with random values, now the only thing that you can correlate is that one of the thousands of senders might also be one of the seemingly tens of thousands of receivers. If the tumbler is allowed to spread it out over multiple days or weeks or even months, well then good luck ever correlating the sender and receiver.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

They just shuffle coins around. Still possible to track. It's also obvious to everyone watching that the shuffling service was used. Exchanges have already started to refuse coins that passed through these services. They might as well be tainted. The real solution is to drop bitcoin and use better technology. Monero looks like the best option right now. Private transactions, concealed amounts, fungibility, low fees and fast transaction processing. It's everything bitcoin was meant to be.

deckard1 6y ago
> The real solution is to drop bitcoin and use better technology. Walk into WalMart with cash and buy a prepaid gift card. Voilà. And the best part: it works literally everywhere. Both the buying and the using. Unlike flavor-of-the-week crypto. Though, let's be real for a second, the ways to screw up from this point are many and varied. Accidentally use your home IP address to make the purchase? Oops. Did the naughty thing at Starbucks and there just happened to be a CCTV cam on you? Oh noes. Probably best to stay offline, use cash everywhere, limit your banking, turn off your smartphone, and move from location to location constantly. Or just give up. > O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
- geoduck14 6y ago
  The Walmart gift card will only get you so far. You can't: buy a fancy boat, car, or house. You can't pay for your kids school supplies (or school tuition), or treat your wife to a fancy hair do. The money laundering laws try to stop people dealing in tens of thousands of dollars, who LIVE off of the money.
  - t0mas88 6y ago
    I think you could buy a prepaid Visa? Or is that not a thing anymore?
    - geoduck14 6y ago
      Hmm.... That IS a thing, and I think they have limits up to $5k. Mind you, if you try to buy anything too big, you'll get put on a list somewhere. Also, something to keep in mind, most financial companies have a "Know Your Customer" stage where they verify you employment and income. If you are trying to buy a $20k thing, and your only income is "a stack of Visa Gift Cards", you're going to have a bad day.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  It’s a pretty obvious strategy that is scrutinized already. Try buying $500 gift cards routinely,
- mekster 6y ago
  So, you're saying a hacker controlling an innocent person's machine can easily get away with it because law enforcement would catch the innocent person instead? Or letting someone else to do that in Starbucks by buying him off would be quite easy.

Taniwha 6y ago

You have to find some clean bitcoins to tumble them with .... why would someone with clean coins tumble theirs with dirty ones?

pier25 6y ago
Do online casinos check whether some coins are dirty?
- Taniwha 6y ago
  Pretty sure I'd be mad if I gave a casino $100k in clean money, then checked back out with $100k that included $50k worth of marked bills from a bank heist ....