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I used to read Coding Horror but stopped paying attention to Jeff Atwood after his anti-coding rant. He repeatedly insisted that "learning to code" is a really

I used to read Coding Horror but stopped paying attention to Jeff Atwood after his anti-coding rant. He repeatedly insisted that "learning to code" is a really dumb thing to do unless you intend to make a career out of it. A really shocking opinion that I was surprised to hear from him, and made me lose all respect for his coding-related opinions.

prichino 6y ago
At least he has opinions. The "everyoness must code" folk sometimes do sound like markov-generated text. Funny that you hold his coding opinions in less respect for what is most decidedly a not coding-related opinion. Substitute coding for "advanced mathematics", "investment banking", "nursing". Would you lose respect for a professional nurse's nursing opinions if he said learning to nurse is a really dumb thing to do unless you intend to make a career out of it?
- vcxy 6y ago
  Not the parent commenter, but kinda, yeah. Saying that it's stupid to learn x if you aren't going to monetize comes off poorly to me. So does saying that everyone should learn x. I don't understand either view. Is it weird to have an interest in nursing and learn about it but not be interested in monetizing it? Sure, it could be. Is it dumb? No.
- jacobr1 6y ago
  An alternative analogy would be "learning first-aid is a dumb thing to do unless you become a medical professional." I wouldn't lose respect, but it is a narrow view, and one worthy of debate. "Programming" is such a powerful tool for everyone to interact with technology and we could do a better job exposing programatic abstractions. Think of how many people use spreadsheets with complex expressions. Is that that not also programming?
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    The problem is that basically every profession contains some parts that basically everyone could benefit in their daily lives from knowing. Chemistry, mechanical engineering, finance, accounting, law, sales... programming is just one item on a list of thousands of things that would be nice to know. It's not reasonable to hold it up above the rest when all of the other ones also deal with things modern life runs on. If there's a message I can get behind, it's "learn more than school taught you, and keep learning after graduation," but holding up one subject above the rest on the grounds of its importance seems a little flimsy when they're all that important. So, all of the things you could be learning on your down time are about equal. If programming has a high place, it's a high place shared among all the rest. Knowledge does have a high place, after all.
- GuB-42 6y ago
  Basic mathematics, personal finance and first-aid are things everyone should learn. Same thing for coding. It is unreasonable to ask everyone to write a compiler or anything on that scale, but I don't think that fizzbuzz is too much to ask. Computers are part of our everyday life now, and teaching the basics of coding early-on can help demystify them. I also think that like maths, it promotes a rigorous and logical way of thinking that can be useful in other fields.
disgrunt 6y ago
I have no opinion of Atwood and am unfamiliar with his work. But a single opinion/rant made you lose all respect for a person? I see this sentiment a lot on HN. The fatal opinion minefield.
- phpnode 6y ago
  I saw something earlier today that said (inelegantly paraphrasing) "developers read articles as if they themselves were a compiler, immediately stopping as soon as they reach a sentence they disagree with and then throwing a syntax error" I think the same thing applies here
  - Koliakis 6y ago
    It's a pattern of behavior that affects a lot of online communities from what I've seen, not just HN, but it's particularly concerning when I see that kind of stance here. There are a number of writers who I disagree with on an ideological level but whose writings and podcasts I'll read/listen to because of the insight these people can provide - even if often I don't agree with their conclusions. I think it's important to be able to consume opinions that don't match your own and be able to hold them in your head without throwing a fit.
    - phpnode 6y ago
      I agree, one very concerning trend I've seen on Twitter (and it's probably seeping into other online spaces too) is that merely following or engaging in discussion with someone whose ideas are controversial can be grounds for a blocking or pile-on. Another quote I saw today: "90% of the internet is just people imagining a guy, tricking themselves into thinking he exists, and then getting really mad at him."
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

prichino 6y ago

At least he has opinions. The "everyoness must code" folk sometimes do sound like markov-generated text. Funny that you hold his coding opinions in less respect for what is most decidedly a not coding-related opinion. Substitute coding for "advanced mathematics", "investment banking", "nursing". Would you lose respect for a professional nurse's nursing opinions if he said learning to nurse is a really dumb thing to do unless you intend to make a career out of it?

vcxy 6y ago
Not the parent commenter, but kinda, yeah. Saying that it's stupid to learn x if you aren't going to monetize comes off poorly to me. So does saying that everyone should learn x. I don't understand either view. Is it weird to have an interest in nursing and learn about it but not be interested in monetizing it? Sure, it could be. Is it dumb? No.
jacobr1 6y ago
An alternative analogy would be "learning first-aid is a dumb thing to do unless you become a medical professional." I wouldn't lose respect, but it is a narrow view, and one worthy of debate. "Programming" is such a powerful tool for everyone to interact with technology and we could do a better job exposing programatic abstractions. Think of how many people use spreadsheets with complex expressions. Is that that not also programming?
- whatshisface 6y ago
  The problem is that basically every profession contains some parts that basically everyone could benefit in their daily lives from knowing. Chemistry, mechanical engineering, finance, accounting, law, sales... programming is just one item on a list of thousands of things that would be nice to know. It's not reasonable to hold it up above the rest when all of the other ones also deal with things modern life runs on. If there's a message I can get behind, it's "learn more than school taught you, and keep learning after graduation," but holding up one subject above the rest on the grounds of its importance seems a little flimsy when they're all that important. So, all of the things you could be learning on your down time are about equal. If programming has a high place, it's a high place shared among all the rest. Knowledge does have a high place, after all.
GuB-42 6y ago
Basic mathematics, personal finance and first-aid are things everyone should learn. Same thing for coding. It is unreasonable to ask everyone to write a compiler or anything on that scale, but I don't think that fizzbuzz is too much to ask. Computers are part of our everyday life now, and teaching the basics of coding early-on can help demystify them. I also think that like maths, it promotes a rigorous and logical way of thinking that can be useful in other fields.

disgrunt 6y ago

I have no opinion of Atwood and am unfamiliar with his work. But a single opinion/rant made you lose all respect for a person? I see this sentiment a lot on HN. The fatal opinion minefield.

phpnode 6y ago
I saw something earlier today that said (inelegantly paraphrasing) "developers read articles as if they themselves were a compiler, immediately stopping as soon as they reach a sentence they disagree with and then throwing a syntax error" I think the same thing applies here
- Koliakis 6y ago
  It's a pattern of behavior that affects a lot of online communities from what I've seen, not just HN, but it's particularly concerning when I see that kind of stance here. There are a number of writers who I disagree with on an ideological level but whose writings and podcasts I'll read/listen to because of the insight these people can provide - even if often I don't agree with their conclusions. I think it's important to be able to consume opinions that don't match your own and be able to hold them in your head without throwing a fit.
  - phpnode 6y ago
    I agree, one very concerning trend I've seen on Twitter (and it's probably seeping into other online spaces too) is that merely following or engaging in discussion with someone whose ideas are controversial can be grounds for a blocking or pile-on. Another quote I saw today: "90% of the internet is just people imagining a guy, tricking themselves into thinking he exists, and then getting really mad at him."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]