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This matches my experience as well. HN having a reasonably high karma threshold for downvoting was a great decision that guards against a lot of common problem

by rurp 6y ago

This matches my experience as well. HN having a reasonably high karma threshold for downvoting was a great decision that guards against a lot of common problems. I think that feature, along with the community as a whole being very mindful about protecting the forum quality, plus Dang being an excellent moderator, have greatly contributed to keeping it strong for many years.

ipband 6y ago
It's not just downvoting that makes HN strong, it's IP banning. Right now I'm commenting via a new user I created via my work VPN, because nothing on my home network is allowed to create new users on HN now or effectively comment, since I always did so using temporary accounts. I'm getting so much more done, so- thanks, HN!
- striking 6y ago
  You can usually be un-IP-banned by going to a particular URL. It's usually not permanent. As for the thing you were banned for, do you feel like HN owes you the ability to make an account per comment?
  - ipband 6y ago
    I made the mistake of practicing free speech in a way that didn't meet the standards. Specifically, I called something out for being stupid in one comment with 1-2 expletives and in another comment I shared a paranoid experience I had with my vaccine, stating clearly it was probably paranoid. If those two things aren't a reason to take away my free speech, I don't know what would be. Go, HN! Up with the valley!
- ascar 6y ago
  Are static ips a common thing in the US? Here in Germany getting a fresh ip is as easy as restarting the router unless you explicitly pay for a static ip.
  - ipband 6y ago
    I'm not using a static IP, but heck they did it anyway. They might have even banned my device IDs (MAC IDs) or thing associated with my route. I don't like VPNs. They're a false sense of security, like Tor, and babies. I never trusted babies...
    - ipband 6y ago
      Just kidding about the babies, folks! They're no more a false sense of security than adults or adolescents!
  - jpindar 6y ago
    Static ips are not common, but ips that are technically dynamic but in fact rarely change are.
    - 8note 6y ago
      That's been helping out my valheim server. I was expecting it to hanger kinda frequently but my IP hasn't changed in more than a month in counting
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    Depends on the ISP. For some people, simply rebooting their router gets a new IP. Others have to explicitly tell it to release the IP and then renew it. Others have to change their router's MAC address. I know that personally, if I release it and renew it, I'll get assigned the same IP. Though my IP is technically dynamic, it hasn't changed in the 5 years I've been in this house. I haven't tried changing my MAC address, but with a previous ISP, I had changed my router's MAC and it wouldn't even get an IP at all until I changed it back. Makes me wonder what would happen if I had changed it to the MAC of a router being used by another customer...
Graffur 6y ago
In fact it seems like a no brainer decision. Why should a day 1 account be able to downvote content?
- paxys 6y ago
  Why should a day 1 account be able to upvote content? They both ultimately have the same impact.
  - Dumblydorr 6y ago
    Well, you can use a bunch of troll accounts to downvote people who disagree with you. Meanwhile, troll accounts up voting a bad post would put it neutral or slightly positive, I'd guess.
  - stevenhuang 6y ago
    I imagine it promotes discourse by encouraging discussion instead of shallow dismissals by downvoting.
  - bitshiftfaced 6y ago
    I think people tend to downvote out of negative emotion but more likely upvote out of genuine interest. All it takes is one bad actor to downvote a comment early and it may never again gain enough visibility to get the position it actually deserves. On the other hand, the absence of upvoting keeps the comment at a neutral level. Its speed of losing visibility can't be unfairly accelerated, and so it has a chance at competing with comments of the same level.
  - busymom0 6y ago
    If a new account can neither upvote nor downvote, then wouldn't it be a catch 22 where no one ever gains any karma? Also as someone else pointed out, people often downvote for political purposes whereas the only reason I can think of someone abusing upvotes would be for spam which gets handled by HN's filters pretty well.
- r00fus 6y ago
  There's a lot more. You shouldn't be able to downvote replies to your post. Rate limits. Metamoderation. Hell/shadowbanning. Most good forums rely on an active superadmin moderation a lot - when that goes away or is unreliable the site dies.
biasKillsHN 6y ago
I can't agree on the moderation. The bias in favor of Apple is extreme. I genuinely don't know if the mods are actively paid off, if Apple astroturfs, or whatever. But it seems those threads are disingenuous. It's impossible to form evidence because good criticism of Apple is often deleted. Meanwhile other threads are dumpster fires.
- confidantlake 6y ago
  There was an article about bad service at apple stores. I commented that I had mostly positive experiences. Was downvoted.
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    There’s a similar dynamic on Nextdoor in my neighborhood. You’re basically not allowed to disagree with the OP. Commenters will say things like “this isn’t the place for it” without addressing the content or actual appropriateness. Usually you’ll be drown out by a bunch of “compassionate” posts or stupid questions[0] as well. If you want to disagree with someone you can start your own post and many of the same people will “protect” your post from disagreement as well. It’s basically impossible to have an actual discussion in that environment. [0] - Stupid as in the answer to their question is literally in the text of the post they’re responding to in the first place.
  - everybodyknows 6y ago
    This is clearly a minority opinion, but in my view well-stated factual anecdotes that the majority find uncomfortable deserve upvote, always. But that's not what they get, not even here on HN. The high karma threshold is helpful, but I doubt raising it further would do much. Some qualitatively different vetting mechanism is wanted. Thought about the problem a lot, but so far reached only a few inchoate notions.
- dang 6y ago
  People with the opposite view see the opposite "extreme" bias. It's basically entirely in the eye of the beholder. What's odd is how common it is, and how absolutely people are convinced that their particular strain of these contradictory generalizations is the accurate one.

by rurp 6y ago

ipband 6y ago

It's not just downvoting that makes HN strong, it's IP banning. Right now I'm commenting via a new user I created via my work VPN, because nothing on my home network is allowed to create new users on HN now or effectively comment, since I always did so using temporary accounts. I'm getting so much more done, so- thanks, HN!

striking 6y ago
You can usually be un-IP-banned by going to a particular URL. It's usually not permanent. As for the thing you were banned for, do you feel like HN owes you the ability to make an account per comment?
- ipband 6y ago
  I made the mistake of practicing free speech in a way that didn't meet the standards. Specifically, I called something out for being stupid in one comment with 1-2 expletives and in another comment I shared a paranoid experience I had with my vaccine, stating clearly it was probably paranoid. If those two things aren't a reason to take away my free speech, I don't know what would be. Go, HN! Up with the valley!
ascar 6y ago
Are static ips a common thing in the US? Here in Germany getting a fresh ip is as easy as restarting the router unless you explicitly pay for a static ip.
- ipband 6y ago
  I'm not using a static IP, but heck they did it anyway. They might have even banned my device IDs (MAC IDs) or thing associated with my route. I don't like VPNs. They're a false sense of security, like Tor, and babies. I never trusted babies...
  - ipband 6y ago
    Just kidding about the babies, folks! They're no more a false sense of security than adults or adolescents!
- jpindar 6y ago
  Static ips are not common, but ips that are technically dynamic but in fact rarely change are.
  - 8note 6y ago
    That's been helping out my valheim server. I was expecting it to hanger kinda frequently but my IP hasn't changed in more than a month in counting
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  Depends on the ISP. For some people, simply rebooting their router gets a new IP. Others have to explicitly tell it to release the IP and then renew it. Others have to change their router's MAC address. I know that personally, if I release it and renew it, I'll get assigned the same IP. Though my IP is technically dynamic, it hasn't changed in the 5 years I've been in this house. I haven't tried changing my MAC address, but with a previous ISP, I had changed my router's MAC and it wouldn't even get an IP at all until I changed it back. Makes me wonder what would happen if I had changed it to the MAC of a router being used by another customer...

Graffur 6y ago

In fact it seems like a no brainer decision. Why should a day 1 account be able to downvote content?

paxys 6y ago
Why should a day 1 account be able to upvote content? They both ultimately have the same impact.
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Well, you can use a bunch of troll accounts to downvote people who disagree with you. Meanwhile, troll accounts up voting a bad post would put it neutral or slightly positive, I'd guess.
- stevenhuang 6y ago
  I imagine it promotes discourse by encouraging discussion instead of shallow dismissals by downvoting.
- bitshiftfaced 6y ago
  I think people tend to downvote out of negative emotion but more likely upvote out of genuine interest. All it takes is one bad actor to downvote a comment early and it may never again gain enough visibility to get the position it actually deserves. On the other hand, the absence of upvoting keeps the comment at a neutral level. Its speed of losing visibility can't be unfairly accelerated, and so it has a chance at competing with comments of the same level.
- busymom0 6y ago
  If a new account can neither upvote nor downvote, then wouldn't it be a catch 22 where no one ever gains any karma? Also as someone else pointed out, people often downvote for political purposes whereas the only reason I can think of someone abusing upvotes would be for spam which gets handled by HN's filters pretty well.
r00fus 6y ago
There's a lot more. You shouldn't be able to downvote replies to your post. Rate limits. Metamoderation. Hell/shadowbanning. Most good forums rely on an active superadmin moderation a lot - when that goes away or is unreliable the site dies.

biasKillsHN 6y ago

I can't agree on the moderation. The bias in favor of Apple is extreme. I genuinely don't know if the mods are actively paid off, if Apple astroturfs, or whatever. But it seems those threads are disingenuous. It's impossible to form evidence because good criticism of Apple is often deleted. Meanwhile other threads are dumpster fires.

confidantlake 6y ago
There was an article about bad service at apple stores. I commented that I had mostly positive experiences. Was downvoted.
- cgriswald 6y ago
  There’s a similar dynamic on Nextdoor in my neighborhood. You’re basically not allowed to disagree with the OP. Commenters will say things like “this isn’t the place for it” without addressing the content or actual appropriateness. Usually you’ll be drown out by a bunch of “compassionate” posts or stupid questions[0] as well. If you want to disagree with someone you can start your own post and many of the same people will “protect” your post from disagreement as well. It’s basically impossible to have an actual discussion in that environment. [0] - Stupid as in the answer to their question is literally in the text of the post they’re responding to in the first place.
- everybodyknows 6y ago
  This is clearly a minority opinion, but in my view well-stated factual anecdotes that the majority find uncomfortable deserve upvote, always. But that's not what they get, not even here on HN. The high karma threshold is helpful, but I doubt raising it further would do much. Some qualitatively different vetting mechanism is wanted. Thought about the problem a lot, but so far reached only a few inchoate notions.
dang 6y ago
People with the opposite view see the opposite "extreme" bias. It's basically entirely in the eye of the beholder. What's odd is how common it is, and how absolutely people are convinced that their particular strain of these contradictory generalizations is the accurate one.