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It's easier to write a bad comment than a good one, so I don't think that downvoting bad comments should be more difficult than it is now. HN software already h

It's easier to write a bad comment than a good one, so I don't think that downvoting bad comments should be more difficult than it is now. HN software already has little nudges that make it easier to gain karma than to lose it: - You can earn points but never lose them by submitting URLs for discussion. - You can't lose more than 4 points per post, no matter how many times it is downvoted. There is no upper limit to points gained from a single upvoted comment. - There is only a 24 hour time window in which comments can be downvoted, but they can still be upvoted even months later. The expertise problem is harder. Sometimes I see a post that has more misconceptions than sentences, but is grammatically correct and written in a confident tone. Only people who actually understand the subject matter will spot the problems quickly. It's tedious to write introductory level corrections for commonly repeated mistakes. For some of them I have considered keeping a mini-FAQ locally and pasting standard responses to standard misconceptions, but HN also discourages repeating identical posts. If I downvote a misinformed post the original poster won't know where they went wrong, and people who see a grayed post won't necessarily understand what's wrong with it either. The saving grace of the downvote is that it affects comment sorting order, so at least misconception-heavy posts that are downvoted won't dominate the upper reaches of the discussion page.

winstonchecksin 6y ago
What’s the criteria for a “bad comment”? And how do you objectively evaluate it? I lurk and post once in a while. What I’ve noticed is that rarely is something downvoted for being factually incorrect (relatively speaking). You just have to offer a perspective that doesn’t conform with the hive mind and the downvoting essentially amounts to censorship of opinions.
- philipkglass 6y ago
  Most of the comments I downvote the official comment guidelines in the section "In Comments" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html When I see heated back-and-forth discussion chains I'll often find myself downvoting several comments and upvoting none of them, because sarcastic quippy retorts to bad comments are also bad comments. I'll also downvote comments for factual inaccuracy, particularly if I don't have the time to patiently correct them. This only partially mitigates the damage and doesn't really help the original author to learn. When someone writes a comment with just a single big mistake, and they don't seem to have a history of willfully repeating it, that's when I am most likely to write a lengthy reply with explanation and citations.
- jjnoakes 6y ago
  I'd appreciate some examples. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in my experience downvoted comments tend to have something beyond a counterpoint or difference of opinion; their content is usually irrelevant or unnecessarily snarky or somehow hostile.
  - hn8788 6y ago
    I don't really have the time to go digging around for examples, but it's common enough that one of the site rules is to not complain about downvotes because it frequently happens for no reason.
    - jjnoakes 6y ago
      The comment author may think there was no reason but almost every time I see a comment complaining about being downvoted, I see a reason among those I listed above.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  It also depends on time hours. I once made a post that criticized the Anglocentric perspective of an article. — it was initially upvoted, but then became downvoted when UTC+2 went to sleep, and then upvoted again when UTC+2 woke up. — one can take a particular guess as to why.
- scpedicini 6y ago
  Anything which is Reddit level of quality in terms of contributing value. For example, low hanging puns that add no actual substantial information.
- r00fus 6y ago
  For me the fuzzy litmus is whether it "promotes knowledge or aids the discussion". Despite whether I agree with it, I upvote anything that I learn something new from. Factual incorrectness is often downvoted, but usually only if there is a reply that points it out.
clairity 6y ago
> "If I downvote a misinformed post the original poster won't know where they went wrong, and people who see a grayed post won't necessarily understand what's wrong with it either." that's ok, the onus is on the downvoted poster to figure it out for themselves. usually that requires seeing a pattern over the course of a few downvoted posts rather than pinpointing it exactly from a given post. most downvoted posts break one or more hn rules, but a few are downvoted ideologically, so a little resilience is required. strictly unpopular opinions can often be more tactfully rephrased and at least be accepted for discussion, if not agreement. this is a pretty good life skill to develop generally anyways.
- teach 6y ago
  I find it sort-of ironic that at the time I am writing this reply, _your_ comment has been downvoted and I'm not sure why. Presumably the onus is on you to figure that out, but good luck, since I'm not sure either and usually I can tell.
  - clairity 6y ago
    yes, sometimes the reason is truly inscrutible. that’s where the resilience part comes in. =)
causality0 6y ago
Not everything on HN is user-facing. For example, one comment can only sink to -4 points, but further downvotes on that comment still contribute to the user being muted. I've experienced that myself.
simias 6y ago
I think downvoting is an anti-pattern because it's a negative interaction, and I think negative interactions shouldn't be encouraged if we value high quality discourse. If downvoting bad comments (for any definition of bad) was harder or even outright impossible you'd still have an alternative: upvote an other, better comment to have it shadow what you consider a less valuable contribution. And that's a positive interaction. Whenever I find a comment that I think is on-topic and somewhat constructive, but I still fundamentally disagree with the take, I generally go hunting for a comment that embraces my point of view (or write one myself) and upvote that. I very rarely downvote comments on this site, and generally only do it for comments that I consider to be completely off topic, flamebait or stupid "meme" references. That being said I do comment quite a bit and I admit that I'm always a bit frustrated when I take the time to write what I consider to be a constructive (if sometimes controversial) comment and I get downvoted reddit-style. It feels disrespectful, almost. I probably care too much about that stuff, I acknowledge that.
- r00fus 6y ago
  How do you promote signal over noise without being able to attenuate (downvote) the noise? Trying to outshout the noise results in FB style cacophony.
  - simias 6y ago
    The main problem with FB IMO is the community, not the moderation tools. I highly doubt that adding downvotes to FB would vastly improve the average quality of the contributions, actually it may well make it worse.

winstonchecksin 6y ago

What’s the criteria for a “bad comment”? And how do you objectively evaluate it? I lurk and post once in a while. What I’ve noticed is that rarely is something downvoted for being factually incorrect (relatively speaking). You just have to offer a perspective that doesn’t conform with the hive mind and the downvoting essentially amounts to censorship of opinions.

philipkglass 6y ago
Most of the comments I downvote the official comment guidelines in the section "In Comments" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html When I see heated back-and-forth discussion chains I'll often find myself downvoting several comments and upvoting none of them, because sarcastic quippy retorts to bad comments are also bad comments. I'll also downvote comments for factual inaccuracy, particularly if I don't have the time to patiently correct them. This only partially mitigates the damage and doesn't really help the original author to learn. When someone writes a comment with just a single big mistake, and they don't seem to have a history of willfully repeating it, that's when I am most likely to write a lengthy reply with explanation and citations.
jjnoakes 6y ago
I'd appreciate some examples. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in my experience downvoted comments tend to have something beyond a counterpoint or difference of opinion; their content is usually irrelevant or unnecessarily snarky or somehow hostile.
- hn8788 6y ago
  I don't really have the time to go digging around for examples, but it's common enough that one of the site rules is to not complain about downvotes because it frequently happens for no reason.
  - jjnoakes 6y ago
    The comment author may think there was no reason but almost every time I see a comment complaining about being downvoted, I see a reason among those I listed above.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
It also depends on time hours. I once made a post that criticized the Anglocentric perspective of an article. — it was initially upvoted, but then became downvoted when UTC+2 went to sleep, and then upvoted again when UTC+2 woke up. — one can take a particular guess as to why.
scpedicini 6y ago
Anything which is Reddit level of quality in terms of contributing value. For example, low hanging puns that add no actual substantial information.
r00fus 6y ago
For me the fuzzy litmus is whether it "promotes knowledge or aids the discussion". Despite whether I agree with it, I upvote anything that I learn something new from. Factual incorrectness is often downvoted, but usually only if there is a reply that points it out.

clairity 6y ago

> "If I downvote a misinformed post the original poster won't know where they went wrong, and people who see a grayed post won't necessarily understand what's wrong with it either." that's ok, the onus is on the downvoted poster to figure it out for themselves. usually that requires seeing a pattern over the course of a few downvoted posts rather than pinpointing it exactly from a given post. most downvoted posts break one or more hn rules, but a few are downvoted ideologically, so a little resilience is required. strictly unpopular opinions can often be more tactfully rephrased and at least be accepted for discussion, if not agreement. this is a pretty good life skill to develop generally anyways.

teach 6y ago
I find it sort-of ironic that at the time I am writing this reply, _your_ comment has been downvoted and I'm not sure why. Presumably the onus is on you to figure that out, but good luck, since I'm not sure either and usually I can tell.
- clairity 6y ago
  yes, sometimes the reason is truly inscrutible. that’s where the resilience part comes in. =)

causality0 6y ago

Not everything on HN is user-facing. For example, one comment can only sink to -4 points, but further downvotes on that comment still contribute to the user being muted. I've experienced that myself.

simias 6y ago

I think downvoting is an anti-pattern because it's a negative interaction, and I think negative interactions shouldn't be encouraged if we value high quality discourse. If downvoting bad comments (for any definition of bad) was harder or even outright impossible you'd still have an alternative: upvote an other, better comment to have it shadow what you consider a less valuable contribution. And that's a positive interaction. Whenever I find a comment that I think is on-topic and somewhat constructive, but I still fundamentally disagree with the take, I generally go hunting for a comment that embraces my point of view (or write one myself) and upvote that. I very rarely downvote comments on this site, and generally only do it for comments that I consider to be completely off topic, flamebait or stupid "meme" references. That being said I do comment quite a bit and I admit that I'm always a bit frustrated when I take the time to write what I consider to be a constructive (if sometimes controversial) comment and I get downvoted reddit-style. It feels disrespectful, almost. I probably care too much about that stuff, I acknowledge that.

r00fus 6y ago
How do you promote signal over noise without being able to attenuate (downvote) the noise? Trying to outshout the noise results in FB style cacophony.
- simias 6y ago
  The main problem with FB IMO is the community, not the moderation tools. I highly doubt that adding downvotes to FB would vastly improve the average quality of the contributions, actually it may well make it worse.