Oh, I think he was popular in his own right. I do maintain a large part of his popularity and success in both elections (yes, even 2020 where he lost) was about

Oh, I think he was popular in his own right. I do maintain a large part of his popularity and success in both elections (yes, even 2020 where he lost) was about rejection of the establishment in general, which yes, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton both represented.