29 ms·

Singapore is a puzzle, a challenge to typical western democratic beliefs that certain things need to go hand-in-hand, or that restricting some rights are intole

Singapore is a puzzle, a challenge to typical western democratic beliefs that certain things need to go hand-in-hand, or that restricting some rights are intolerable. It makes you question whether you're completely right about certain things. They restrict freedom of speech in certain areas so that people don't get riled up by issues that only "cause trouble". But that means it's harder to question and expose some perhaps injustices. But they also mitigate that by having strong internal checks and government incentives to root out such problems. They believe in equal opportunities, yet have some significant racially based laws and restrictions. For example, you are not allowed to say that any particular race is "better" than another. And certain things are allocated (by government) by race. But this restriction on speech / allocation helps keep the peace and prevent racial riots and animosity. They have draconian drug policies. But they don't have major drug problems or homeless on the streets. It's a small city, so some things are very peculiar to its situation and probably don't work elsewhere. And maybe there is a cultural aspect to tolerance for these rules too. But whether you agree or disagree, Singapore makes you think twice whether you're right about your beliefs.

77pt77 6y ago
> For example, you are not allowed to say that any particular race is "better" than another And yet I think one racial group of citizens was banned from the Air Force until a decade or so ago.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  I had not heard of that, that is interesting to know. Well, the government certainly still does make mistakes. It is not infallible by any measure. Are you speaking of the restriction on conscription of Malay citizens? Which would naturally preclude them from being in the Air Force in similar numbers? Or some worse actual policy of exclusion?
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > Which would naturally preclude them from being in the Air Force in similar numbers? Or some worse actual policy of exclusion? The prevailing theory is that they're more likely to have kin in neighbouring Malaysia. Singapore is perpetually fearful of being annexed by Malaysia. (These days, it's more like propaganda to keep mandatory conscription relevant.)
  - 77pt77 6y ago
    > Are you speaking of the restriction on conscription of Malay citizens? I believe it was that, yes.
- refurb 6y ago
  LKY also said, not that long ago, that “Singapore wasn’t ready for an Indian Prime Minister”. Singapore’s perception of causing “racial disharmony” is very different from the West. In fact, the ruling party in Singapore has been speaking against importing any sort of “woke politics”.
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > LKY also said, not that long ago, that “Singapore wasn’t ready for an Indian Prime Minister”. 1988 seems like a lifetime ago [1]: > Back in 1988, LKY said that he would have considered then Minister for National Development, S Dhanabalan for Prime MInister had he not been Indian. LKY was certain of the opinion back then, that Singapore was not ready for a non-Chinese Prime Minister. [1] https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2021/01/26/is-it-pap-that-is-not-ready-for-a-non-chinese-leader-as-opposed-to-singaporeans/ https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2021/01/26/is-it-pap-that-i...
ValentineC 6y ago
> But they don't have major drug problems or homeless on the streets. Singapore has homeless people [1]. They're sometimes homeless by choice or pride. It's more obvious if one is out and about in the housing areas at night. I walk past one homeless person sleeping on a void deck bench every day. [1] https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/about-1000-homeless-people-sleeping-rough-singapore-first-ever-study-finds https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/about-1000-homeless-pe...
- supernova87a 6y ago
  Yes, though I qualified it as "major". In some US cities, it's almost one homeless person per bench. And in other parts of the US, everyone has a family member or knows someone with a family member suffering from drug addiction.
hnfong 6y ago
So the Singapore thing is only a puzzle for those who refuse to accept that Confucian values had been working pretty well as a political ideology for hundreds of years in Asia (until the world flipped upside down in the past two centuries). For example, if you look more closely at Japan, while their politics is arguably more democratic, the culture has an obvious authoritarian slant as well. Mostly unnoticeable to foreigners but it's there. Some of what you described regarding Singapore also applies to Japan, albeit sometimes those things might be enforced culturally and not necessarily in law. (But then, look up their criminal conviction rate if you want to be scared.) China is another example. People often have strong (and often irrationally emotional) opinions about politics in China, but I suppose we can agree that the past narrative about the Chinese government having to implement democratic reforms or perish has lost much credibility by now. I mean, everyone has their own opinions about what is a "moral" way to run a country, but if we're talking about achieving objective results with Confucian-style-paternalistic-authoritarian governments, Singapore isn't really an exception. (In fact, it might be the only way East Asian countries know how to properly run a country. There's more to public administration than democratic elections)

77pt77 6y ago

> For example, you are not allowed to say that any particular race is "better" than another And yet I think one racial group of citizens was banned from the Air Force until a decade or so ago.

supernova87a 6y ago
I had not heard of that, that is interesting to know. Well, the government certainly still does make mistakes. It is not infallible by any measure. Are you speaking of the restriction on conscription of Malay citizens? Which would naturally preclude them from being in the Air Force in similar numbers? Or some worse actual policy of exclusion?
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > Which would naturally preclude them from being in the Air Force in similar numbers? Or some worse actual policy of exclusion? The prevailing theory is that they're more likely to have kin in neighbouring Malaysia. Singapore is perpetually fearful of being annexed by Malaysia. (These days, it's more like propaganda to keep mandatory conscription relevant.)
- 77pt77 6y ago
  > Are you speaking of the restriction on conscription of Malay citizens? I believe it was that, yes.
refurb 6y ago
LKY also said, not that long ago, that “Singapore wasn’t ready for an Indian Prime Minister”. Singapore’s perception of causing “racial disharmony” is very different from the West. In fact, the ruling party in Singapore has been speaking against importing any sort of “woke politics”.
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > LKY also said, not that long ago, that “Singapore wasn’t ready for an Indian Prime Minister”. 1988 seems like a lifetime ago [1]: > Back in 1988, LKY said that he would have considered then Minister for National Development, S Dhanabalan for Prime MInister had he not been Indian. LKY was certain of the opinion back then, that Singapore was not ready for a non-Chinese Prime Minister. [1] https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2021/01/26/is-it-pap-that-is-not-ready-for-a-non-chinese-leader-as-opposed-to-singaporeans/ https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2021/01/26/is-it-pap-that-i...

ValentineC 6y ago

> But they don't have major drug problems or homeless on the streets. Singapore has homeless people [1]. They're sometimes homeless by choice or pride. It's more obvious if one is out and about in the housing areas at night. I walk past one homeless person sleeping on a void deck bench every day. [1] https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/about-1000-homeless-people-sleeping-rough-singapore-first-ever-study-finds https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/about-1000-homeless-pe...

supernova87a 6y ago
Yes, though I qualified it as "major". In some US cities, it's almost one homeless person per bench. And in other parts of the US, everyone has a family member or knows someone with a family member suffering from drug addiction.

hnfong 6y ago

So the Singapore thing is only a puzzle for those who refuse to accept that Confucian values had been working pretty well as a political ideology for hundreds of years in Asia (until the world flipped upside down in the past two centuries). For example, if you look more closely at Japan, while their politics is arguably more democratic, the culture has an obvious authoritarian slant as well. Mostly unnoticeable to foreigners but it's there. Some of what you described regarding Singapore also applies to Japan, albeit sometimes those things might be enforced culturally and not necessarily in law. (But then, look up their criminal conviction rate if you want to be scared.) China is another example. People often have strong (and often irrationally emotional) opinions about politics in China, but I suppose we can agree that the past narrative about the Chinese government having to implement democratic reforms or perish has lost much credibility by now. I mean, everyone has their own opinions about what is a "moral" way to run a country, but if we're talking about achieving objective results with Confucian-style-paternalistic-authoritarian governments, Singapore isn't really an exception. (In fact, it might be the only way East Asian countries know how to properly run a country. There's more to public administration than democratic elections)