4 ms·

So you just redefined a the name „Ponzi” to mean something else than the commonly accepted definition.

saalweachter 6y ago
Here, let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=ponzi+scheme+definition https://www.google.com/search?q=ponzi+scheme+definition Pon·zi scheme /ˈpänzē ˌskēm/ noun a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  Well you used to be able to buy drugs and child porn with it so it's not a nonexistent enterprise. /s
- quchen 6y ago
  Ponzi is also derogatory. You should not dismiss the fact that Bitcoin kicked off blockchain as a technology, got a lot of people into a sort of financial playground, had questionable value and utility initially, and all that. All that considered, you might still call it a Ponzi scheme if you really wanted to, but it certainly isn’t only a Ponzi scheme.
  - diarrhea 6y ago
    > Bitcoin kicked off blockchain as a technology "Started at the bottom, now we a little bit above the bottom"
- karpour 6y ago
  Pretty spot-on! I think it's fair to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme, it is not and will not be a stable currency, it's value isn't backed by anything and it needs constant new investment to work at all.
- shawnz 6y ago
  There is no nonexistent enterprise in this case. Nobody is claiming that the returns of cryptocurrency speculators are coming from a business venture.
  - hctaw 6y ago
    the nonexistent enterprise is the use of bitcoin as a medium of exchange
    - shawnz 6y ago
      Bitcoin actually functions as a medium of exchange and that's not an enterprise anyway. Is there an expectation that by buying Bitcoins, you are funding the growth of a business which creates profits by using your investment, and those profits are where your investment return is coming from? If that's not the case, then it isn't a Ponzi scheme.
      - saalweachter 6y ago
        Yeah, but ... I am constantly told that Bitcoin (et al) is the future, that it is revolutionary, that it is going to be big in some way -- that it will replace "fiat" currencies, for instance, although the exact way it is going to be big has changed over time. That some people are making money hand over fist by investing is then used as proof that it is a good investment. That the fake enterprise is just lazy meta-financial-jargon rather than a more effort-full fake building project or an imaginary hedge fund with fake books and blueprints and a fancy office and whatnot isn't enough to make the definition inaccurate IMO. Quacks like a duck, etc.
        shawnz 6y ago
        Misleading people about the power of a technology doesn't make something a Ponzi scheme. You need to mislead investors about the origin of their returns. Purposeful speculation isn't a Ponzi scheme even if the speculators were misled about the thing they are speculating on.
      - 6y ago
- tim333 6y ago
  That's not really a good definition, dragged up by the Google bot without a link to the source. It says "Definitions from Oxford Languages" but I'm having a job finding where that was from. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ponzi-scheme https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... was kind of similar and has " a plan for making money that involves encouraging people to invest by offering them a high rate of interest and using their money to pay earlier investors. When there are not enough new investors, people who have recently invested lose their money." which I think is what is usually meant by a ponzi scheme and is different from bitcoin. Even with your definition bitcoin doesn't really fit: "form of fraud" - bitcoin was completely open about what you were getting from the start "nonexistent enterprise" - the first and largest decentralized digital payments system. The more legit complaint is the enterprise is wrecking the environment more than it doesn't exist.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    I'll admit, Ponzi schemes could be considered centralized by definition. It might be more accurate to describe it as a pyramid scheme -- because investors become a part of the scheme, actively seeking more investors from whom they hope to recoup their investment -- or a pump-and-dump, focusing on the market component. Re: Bitcoin as a digital payments, my complaint there would be that Bitcoin is not structured to return transaction fees to people buying Bitcoin as an investment.
    - Ekaros 6y ago
      I don't think Bitcoin is any type of scheme. It's just a typical bubble. As a new asset class. Nothing special or schemis about it.
      - Hallucinaut 6y ago
        Possibly fair to exclude Bitcoin from that definition, being the first and essentially a research project let loose... but what about 1000+ dead coins?

Here, let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=ponzi+scheme+definition https://www.google.com/search?q=ponzi+scheme+definition Pon·zi scheme /ˈpänzē ˌskēm/ noun a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
Well you used to be able to buy drugs and child porn with it so it's not a nonexistent enterprise. /s
quchen 6y ago
Ponzi is also derogatory. You should not dismiss the fact that Bitcoin kicked off blockchain as a technology, got a lot of people into a sort of financial playground, had questionable value and utility initially, and all that. All that considered, you might still call it a Ponzi scheme if you really wanted to, but it certainly isn’t only a Ponzi scheme.
- diarrhea 6y ago
  > Bitcoin kicked off blockchain as a technology "Started at the bottom, now we a little bit above the bottom"
karpour 6y ago
Pretty spot-on! I think it's fair to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme, it is not and will not be a stable currency, it's value isn't backed by anything and it needs constant new investment to work at all.
shawnz 6y ago
There is no nonexistent enterprise in this case. Nobody is claiming that the returns of cryptocurrency speculators are coming from a business venture.
- hctaw 6y ago
  the nonexistent enterprise is the use of bitcoin as a medium of exchange
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Bitcoin actually functions as a medium of exchange and that's not an enterprise anyway. Is there an expectation that by buying Bitcoins, you are funding the growth of a business which creates profits by using your investment, and those profits are where your investment return is coming from? If that's not the case, then it isn't a Ponzi scheme.
    - saalweachter 6y ago
      Yeah, but ... I am constantly told that Bitcoin (et al) is the future, that it is revolutionary, that it is going to be big in some way -- that it will replace "fiat" currencies, for instance, although the exact way it is going to be big has changed over time. That some people are making money hand over fist by investing is then used as proof that it is a good investment. That the fake enterprise is just lazy meta-financial-jargon rather than a more effort-full fake building project or an imaginary hedge fund with fake books and blueprints and a fancy office and whatnot isn't enough to make the definition inaccurate IMO. Quacks like a duck, etc.
      - shawnz 6y ago
        Misleading people about the power of a technology doesn't make something a Ponzi scheme. You need to mislead investors about the origin of their returns. Purposeful speculation isn't a Ponzi scheme even if the speculators were misled about the thing they are speculating on.
    - 6y ago
tim333 6y ago
That's not really a good definition, dragged up by the Google bot without a link to the source. It says "Definitions from Oxford Languages" but I'm having a job finding where that was from. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ponzi-scheme https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... was kind of similar and has " a plan for making money that involves encouraging people to invest by offering them a high rate of interest and using their money to pay earlier investors. When there are not enough new investors, people who have recently invested lose their money." which I think is what is usually meant by a ponzi scheme and is different from bitcoin. Even with your definition bitcoin doesn't really fit: "form of fraud" - bitcoin was completely open about what you were getting from the start "nonexistent enterprise" - the first and largest decentralized digital payments system. The more legit complaint is the enterprise is wrecking the environment more than it doesn't exist.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  I'll admit, Ponzi schemes could be considered centralized by definition. It might be more accurate to describe it as a pyramid scheme -- because investors become a part of the scheme, actively seeking more investors from whom they hope to recoup their investment -- or a pump-and-dump, focusing on the market component. Re: Bitcoin as a digital payments, my complaint there would be that Bitcoin is not structured to return transaction fees to people buying Bitcoin as an investment.
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    I don't think Bitcoin is any type of scheme. It's just a typical bubble. As a new asset class. Nothing special or schemis about it.
    - Hallucinaut 6y ago
      Possibly fair to exclude Bitcoin from that definition, being the first and essentially a research project let loose... but what about 1000+ dead coins?