6 ms·

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhu

by kiba 6y ago

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

zymhan 6y ago
You can't just fine billionaires and expect that they'll reform.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  Or maybe we could. Just make them go enough to negative without option of bankruptcy... Paying at couple billion back after selling all the holdings and property don't sound too unreasonable. We could even leave them some money to live like sum equal to minimum wage.
mpalmer 6y ago
Time is the only asset we all mostly have in common. If your laws and the enforcement thereof are just (big if), then why shouldn't the punishment be exacted in a way that generally affects everyone equally? Beyond that, prison is inhumane as a rough function of where you are. Maybe you're thinking of a particular prison system. How does it fix anything? It should primarily be a deterrent, and secondarily a way to protect society from dangerous people.
- cogman10 6y ago
  I have a sneaking suspicion that if more billionares spent time in prison, we'd see massive reform on the prison system towards the humane.
  - pydry 6y ago
    Or a class system for prisons.
    - cogman10 6y ago
      Probably depends on how many prisons are private vs public. I could definitely see a class system forming in private prisons (it is sort of there already). For public prisons, that's harder. They have to convince law makers to pass laws to enable them to get special treatment. That'd be pretty unpopular. But, then again, MJ legalization is very popular and it still hasn't happened yet so who knows if policy popularity even sways politicians at this point.
  - cmurf 6y ago
    Rich people already go to low security VIP prisons. Visits with family in parks, better food, internet, and everyone is non-violent. Billionaires aren't put in general population.
cogman10 6y ago
What the US most commonly jail's people for (drug offenses) is barbaric. That said, the reason for jail is to not only rehabilitate but also to deter. The problem we have is that white collar crimes almost never result in jail time for the rich. The financial deterrent is just ineffective at stopping bad behavior. They can run the risk/rewards calculations and often come up with the conclusion that "we'll make more money than we lose to a fine" and they proceed to do the bad behavior. A good example of this is fireworks at disneyland. They pay fines for their daily displays and write it off as a cost of doing business. So what's the point of the fine? Weren't we trying to stop them from launching fireworks or was it just to extract money from a theme park? Now imagine if the action for launching fireworks was the general manager of disneyland or their manager serving 2 days in jail. I can assure you, those fireworks would be stopped the next day. That's the point. If the law is only a set of rules for the poor how can anyone be confident that it is going to work or be applied fairly? If you can buy your way out of compliance then what's the point?
- minitoar 6y ago
  I actually feel like Disney would be willing to pay people to spend 2 days in jail in order to keep their fireworks show. You’ve just moved the cost from a fine to a salary.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    You just have to go up the management chain until you find the person that will stop the practice. I doubt if it ended up with the CEO and going to jail that they'd keep it up.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      yeah and if that doesn't work, you can always go after their family.
- bluedino 6y ago
  >> What the US most commonly jail's people for (drug offenses) is barbaric. If you're talking about prisons, nearly 4 times as many people are in prison for violent crimes (robbery, assault, rape, murder...) than drug charges. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
ecocentrik 6y ago
oversimplify much?
ericbarrett 6y ago
My prediction: Start giving perpetrators of financial crimes real prison time and you'll see major prison reform within a few years.
- refurb 6y ago
  You think white collar criminals go to bad prisons?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
vidarh 6y ago
In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found myself on a US jury I'd have a hard time justifying a vote to convict, and the sentences seem to be more about vengeance than about rehabilitation or making society safer.
- bobthechef 6y ago
  I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you? I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as much as we do? Why all this ridiculous outrage in the public square about all sorts real and imagined sins when life itself is so cheap? Whatever the flaws in the American justice system (and there are many), Norwegian law and the sensibilities behind it are insane in this respect. > sentences seem to be more about vengeance than about rehabilitation or making society safer. Justice has more than one aim. Deterrence and rehabilitation are two of them, so is the preservation of social order. But justice is also retributive. Retribution isn't about hate, whatever modern confusion tells you. That's why we aim to have qualified impartial third-parties (judges) who are supposed to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob, one that often confuses envy with anger at injustice.
  - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
    > if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man > to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob See the duality of your own post. If I try to be impartial, I can hardly see the point to any sentence larger than a couple decades. When you get to those levels of sentencing where you basically decimate the total useful lifetime of someone, you might as well kill the person. ... and I guess I understand something now.
SilasX 6y ago
Yes, most US prisons are inhumane. That doesn’t apply to the minimum security resort prisons that white collar criminals get sent to.
bobthechef 6y ago
> Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. You have a very warped view of justice. Rape isn't "inhumane"? Murdering someone isn't "inhumane"? In the case of premeditated murder the murderer forfeits the right to life, so the death penalty, especially for especially egregious acts, is entirely just. To claim it isn't is unjust and an insult to the victim. Mercy only has meaning when the penalty is deserved and prudence will dictate whether the peantly ought to be exercised in the given circumstances given the best account of the facts and our limited knowledge (hence the need for judges who have the authority and the perspective to better adjudicate dispassionately instead of fueling some Sicilian family feud or a lynch mob that confuses envy with anger at injustice). > Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people. Uh, yes? OBVIOUSLY, if someone is GUILTY, he DESERVES blame and punishment. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand or how you could possibly think this is wrong or that a world without them is preferable or even feasible. If someone has freely committed a crime, if he has chosen to commit that crime and has carried it out, then OBVIOUSLY he bears responsibility for it and is culpable for his actions.

by kiba 6y ago

zymhan 6y ago

You can't just fine billionaires and expect that they'll reform.

Ekaros 6y ago
Or maybe we could. Just make them go enough to negative without option of bankruptcy... Paying at couple billion back after selling all the holdings and property don't sound too unreasonable. We could even leave them some money to live like sum equal to minimum wage.

mpalmer 6y ago

Time is the only asset we all mostly have in common. If your laws and the enforcement thereof are just (big if), then why shouldn't the punishment be exacted in a way that generally affects everyone equally? Beyond that, prison is inhumane as a rough function of where you are. Maybe you're thinking of a particular prison system. How does it fix anything? It should primarily be a deterrent, and secondarily a way to protect society from dangerous people.

cogman10 6y ago
I have a sneaking suspicion that if more billionares spent time in prison, we'd see massive reform on the prison system towards the humane.
- pydry 6y ago
  Or a class system for prisons.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Probably depends on how many prisons are private vs public. I could definitely see a class system forming in private prisons (it is sort of there already). For public prisons, that's harder. They have to convince law makers to pass laws to enable them to get special treatment. That'd be pretty unpopular. But, then again, MJ legalization is very popular and it still hasn't happened yet so who knows if policy popularity even sways politicians at this point.
- cmurf 6y ago
  Rich people already go to low security VIP prisons. Visits with family in parks, better food, internet, and everyone is non-violent. Billionaires aren't put in general population.

cogman10 6y ago

What the US most commonly jail's people for (drug offenses) is barbaric. That said, the reason for jail is to not only rehabilitate but also to deter. The problem we have is that white collar crimes almost never result in jail time for the rich. The financial deterrent is just ineffective at stopping bad behavior. They can run the risk/rewards calculations and often come up with the conclusion that "we'll make more money than we lose to a fine" and they proceed to do the bad behavior. A good example of this is fireworks at disneyland. They pay fines for their daily displays and write it off as a cost of doing business. So what's the point of the fine? Weren't we trying to stop them from launching fireworks or was it just to extract money from a theme park? Now imagine if the action for launching fireworks was the general manager of disneyland or their manager serving 2 days in jail. I can assure you, those fireworks would be stopped the next day. That's the point. If the law is only a set of rules for the poor how can anyone be confident that it is going to work or be applied fairly? If you can buy your way out of compliance then what's the point?

minitoar 6y ago
I actually feel like Disney would be willing to pay people to spend 2 days in jail in order to keep their fireworks show. You’ve just moved the cost from a fine to a salary.
- cogman10 6y ago
  You just have to go up the management chain until you find the person that will stop the practice. I doubt if it ended up with the CEO and going to jail that they'd keep it up.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    yeah and if that doesn't work, you can always go after their family.
bluedino 6y ago
>> What the US most commonly jail's people for (drug offenses) is barbaric. If you're talking about prisons, nearly 4 times as many people are in prison for violent crimes (robbery, assault, rape, murder...) than drug charges. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

ecocentrik 6y ago

oversimplify much?

ericbarrett 6y ago

My prediction: Start giving perpetrators of financial crimes real prison time and you'll see major prison reform within a few years.

refurb 6y ago
You think white collar criminals go to bad prisons?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

vidarh 6y ago

In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found myself on a US jury I'd have a hard time justifying a vote to convict, and the sentences seem to be more about vengeance than about rehabilitation or making society safer.

bobthechef 6y ago
I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you? I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as much as we do? Why all this ridiculous outrage in the public square about all sorts real and imagined sins when life itself is so cheap? Whatever the flaws in the American justice system (and there are many), Norwegian law and the sensibilities behind it are insane in this respect. > sentences seem to be more about vengeance than about rehabilitation or making society safer. Justice has more than one aim. Deterrence and rehabilitation are two of them, so is the preservation of social order. But justice is also retributive. Retribution isn't about hate, whatever modern confusion tells you. That's why we aim to have qualified impartial third-parties (judges) who are supposed to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob, one that often confuses envy with anger at injustice.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  > if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man > to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob See the duality of your own post. If I try to be impartial, I can hardly see the point to any sentence larger than a couple decades. When you get to those levels of sentencing where you basically decimate the total useful lifetime of someone, you might as well kill the person. ... and I guess I understand something now.

SilasX 6y ago

Yes, most US prisons are inhumane. That doesn’t apply to the minimum security resort prisons that white collar criminals get sent to.

bobthechef 6y ago

> Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. You have a very warped view of justice. Rape isn't "inhumane"? Murdering someone isn't "inhumane"? In the case of premeditated murder the murderer forfeits the right to life, so the death penalty, especially for especially egregious acts, is entirely just. To claim it isn't is unjust and an insult to the victim. Mercy only has meaning when the penalty is deserved and prudence will dictate whether the peantly ought to be exercised in the given circumstances given the best account of the facts and our limited knowledge (hence the need for judges who have the authority and the perspective to better adjudicate dispassionately instead of fueling some Sicilian family feud or a lynch mob that confuses envy with anger at injustice). > Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people. Uh, yes? OBVIOUSLY, if someone is GUILTY, he DESERVES blame and punishment. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand or how you could possibly think this is wrong or that a world without them is preferable or even feasible. If someone has freely committed a crime, if he has chosen to commit that crime and has carried it out, then OBVIOUSLY he bears responsibility for it and is culpable for his actions.