5 ms·

So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?

finikytou 6y ago
I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?
- bidirectional 6y ago
  How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
  - finikytou 6y ago
    I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
    - bobthechef 6y ago
      The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
      - bidirectional 6y ago
        Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
    - bidirectional 6y ago
      That's not what I'm asking about. They specifically said trading desks at banks, Citadel is a market maker. But what's really you're just parroting baseless conspiracy -- Citadel is a legitimate business which provides a great service to Robin Hood users. Payment for order flow is very good for the retail investor, reducing commissions and improving prices, the recent episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast with Doug Cifu went explained exactly how this works, it's a classic example of incentives aligning. Also by design no market maker gets access to all Robinhood transactions.
      - finikytou 6y ago
        sure. they dont get access to all robinhood transactions. their trading algorithms do the work. if you know a few ms in advance the trades you can literaly make money out of it. and this should be clearly advertised when getting into robinhood. Your argument that it is to help retail traders to enter for cheap into trading is fallacious. It is exactly like saying getting into real estate nowadays is a no brainer due to low interest loans. even tho the loan means borrowing money for 30years and living like a slave to pay a rent that the generation before you got in 10years. In the same ways FB makes money out of people Citadel and Robinhood does it 0 conspiracy there
        bidirectional 6y ago
        It's nothing to do with knowing the trades 'in advance', they're the ones doing the trades! Market makers like Citadel are regulated to improve the prices offered in the market place. A stock may trade for $50 on the exchange, but Citadel can sell it for $49.50, they must improve prices and they do. Part of the reason they can do this is that Robin Hood orders are 'safe'. If a huge hedge fund comes to Citadel and wants to trade a million shares in TSLA, they likely know something Citadel doesn't and will rip their face off. That's why Robin Hood orders are valuable, luckily, the incentives of the retail investor (buying a stock as cheap as possible) and the market maker (selling to someone who isn't about to pummel them) line up. If you think Citadel and its ilk are bad, you should see the guys they replaced! Market making is as old as the market itself, the modern advancements allow commission-free trading, massive liquidity and tiny spreads, before you'd be paying commission and buying a stock for dollars more than you could sell it for. They're good for the market and it's a shame this crazy conspiratorial thinking (which is never backed up by any real understanding) has taken hold of so many people.
- tartoran 6y ago
  If there was only one person orchestrating and solely benefitting from the subprime crisis it would be easy to put them in jail but there are too many to be put in jail, it’s the equivalent of ‘too big to fail’ but for people, ‘too many to pinpoint blame’ type of thinking. All these people knew it was going nowhere but they kept imflating the bubble because all their peers were doing it also and that despite numerous people raising res flags at the same time. Maddoff was a dumb thief, and very cunning indeed but he operated in silence. That’s not to say the same thing about the others who ‘gamged up’ knowing that in case of failure many fingers would be pointed out in too many directions.
  - blowski 6y ago
    I’d be ok if even some of the guilty people went to prison. We don’t imprison every single drug user.

finikytou 6y ago

I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?

bidirectional 6y ago
How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
- finikytou 6y ago
  I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
  - bobthechef 6y ago
    The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
    - bidirectional 6y ago
      Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
  - bidirectional 6y ago
    That's not what I'm asking about. They specifically said trading desks at banks, Citadel is a market maker. But what's really you're just parroting baseless conspiracy -- Citadel is a legitimate business which provides a great service to Robin Hood users. Payment for order flow is very good for the retail investor, reducing commissions and improving prices, the recent episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast with Doug Cifu went explained exactly how this works, it's a classic example of incentives aligning. Also by design no market maker gets access to all Robinhood transactions.
    - finikytou 6y ago
      sure. they dont get access to all robinhood transactions. their trading algorithms do the work. if you know a few ms in advance the trades you can literaly make money out of it. and this should be clearly advertised when getting into robinhood. Your argument that it is to help retail traders to enter for cheap into trading is fallacious. It is exactly like saying getting into real estate nowadays is a no brainer due to low interest loans. even tho the loan means borrowing money for 30years and living like a slave to pay a rent that the generation before you got in 10years. In the same ways FB makes money out of people Citadel and Robinhood does it 0 conspiracy there
      - bidirectional 6y ago
        It's nothing to do with knowing the trades 'in advance', they're the ones doing the trades! Market makers like Citadel are regulated to improve the prices offered in the market place. A stock may trade for $50 on the exchange, but Citadel can sell it for $49.50, they must improve prices and they do. Part of the reason they can do this is that Robin Hood orders are 'safe'. If a huge hedge fund comes to Citadel and wants to trade a million shares in TSLA, they likely know something Citadel doesn't and will rip their face off. That's why Robin Hood orders are valuable, luckily, the incentives of the retail investor (buying a stock as cheap as possible) and the market maker (selling to someone who isn't about to pummel them) line up. If you think Citadel and its ilk are bad, you should see the guys they replaced! Market making is as old as the market itself, the modern advancements allow commission-free trading, massive liquidity and tiny spreads, before you'd be paying commission and buying a stock for dollars more than you could sell it for. They're good for the market and it's a shame this crazy conspiratorial thinking (which is never backed up by any real understanding) has taken hold of so many people.
tartoran 6y ago
If there was only one person orchestrating and solely benefitting from the subprime crisis it would be easy to put them in jail but there are too many to be put in jail, it’s the equivalent of ‘too big to fail’ but for people, ‘too many to pinpoint blame’ type of thinking. All these people knew it was going nowhere but they kept imflating the bubble because all their peers were doing it also and that despite numerous people raising res flags at the same time. Maddoff was a dumb thief, and very cunning indeed but he operated in silence. That’s not to say the same thing about the others who ‘gamged up’ knowing that in case of failure many fingers would be pointed out in too many directions.
- blowski 6y ago
  I’d be ok if even some of the guilty people went to prison. We don’t imprison every single drug user.