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Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed

Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed the life savings of others. EDIT: Yes, non-profits and pension funds as well. That's not taking from the rich. Madoff was not Robin Hood.

mathattack 6y ago
Many non-profits who invested their endowments with him got hurt too.
finikytou 6y ago
no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just look at the papers from 2008 if you don't believe it.
- obmelvin 6y ago
  So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?
  - finikytou 6y ago
    I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?
    - bidirectional 6y ago
      How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
      - finikytou 6y ago
        I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
        bobthechef 6y ago
        The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
        bidirectional 6y ago
        Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
        bidirectional 6y ago
        That's not what I'm asking about. They specifically said trading desks at banks, Citadel is a market maker. But what's really you're just parroting baseless conspiracy -- Citadel is a legitimate business which provides a great service to Robin Hood users. Payment for order flow is very good for the retail investor, reducing commissions and improving prices, the recent episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast with Doug Cifu went explained exactly how this works, it's a classic example of incentives aligning. Also by design no market maker gets access to all Robinhood transactions.
    - tartoran 6y ago
      If there was only one person orchestrating and solely benefitting from the subprime crisis it would be easy to put them in jail but there are too many to be put in jail, it’s the equivalent of ‘too big to fail’ but for people, ‘too many to pinpoint blame’ type of thinking. All these people knew it was going nowhere but they kept imflating the bubble because all their peers were doing it also and that despite numerous people raising res flags at the same time. Maddoff was a dumb thief, and very cunning indeed but he operated in silence. That’s not to say the same thing about the others who ‘gamged up’ knowing that in case of failure many fingers would be pointed out in too many directions.
      - blowski 6y ago
        I’d be ok if even some of the guilty people went to prison. We don’t imprison every single drug user.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-scars-remain-10-years-later https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-... (NPR: For Madoff Victims, Scars Remain 10 Years Later)
- bidirectional 6y ago
  75% - opportunity cost - inflation. If you plan your life around having $1 million in savings because that's what your statements from Madoff say, recovering 75% of the fraction you put in is pretty bad.

mathattack 6y ago

Many non-profits who invested their endowments with him got hurt too.

finikytou 6y ago

no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just look at the papers from 2008 if you don't believe it.

obmelvin 6y ago
So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?
- finikytou 6y ago
  I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?
  - bidirectional 6y ago
    How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
    - finikytou 6y ago
      I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
      - bobthechef 6y ago
        The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
        bidirectional 6y ago
        Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
      - bidirectional 6y ago
        That's not what I'm asking about. They specifically said trading desks at banks, Citadel is a market maker. But what's really you're just parroting baseless conspiracy -- Citadel is a legitimate business which provides a great service to Robin Hood users. Payment for order flow is very good for the retail investor, reducing commissions and improving prices, the recent episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast with Doug Cifu went explained exactly how this works, it's a classic example of incentives aligning. Also by design no market maker gets access to all Robinhood transactions.
  - tartoran 6y ago
    If there was only one person orchestrating and solely benefitting from the subprime crisis it would be easy to put them in jail but there are too many to be put in jail, it’s the equivalent of ‘too big to fail’ but for people, ‘too many to pinpoint blame’ type of thinking. All these people knew it was going nowhere but they kept imflating the bubble because all their peers were doing it also and that despite numerous people raising res flags at the same time. Maddoff was a dumb thief, and very cunning indeed but he operated in silence. That’s not to say the same thing about the others who ‘gamged up’ knowing that in case of failure many fingers would be pointed out in too many directions.
    - blowski 6y ago
      I’d be ok if even some of the guilty people went to prison. We don’t imprison every single drug user.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-scars-remain-10-years-later https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-... (NPR: For Madoff Victims, Scars Remain 10 Years Later)
bidirectional 6y ago
75% - opportunity cost - inflation. If you plan your life around having $1 million in savings because that's what your statements from Madoff say, recovering 75% of the fraction you put in is pretty bad.