7 ms·

that is not the number one learning and I think you are wrong. The real powerful and rich do not fear jail. They fear people like madoff that targets them. Th

that is not the number one learning and I think you are wrong. The real powerful and rich do not fear jail. They fear people like madoff that targets them. That is why Madoff ended his life in jail while banks/funds CEO in the 2008 are now richer than ever stealing money from the poors and taking 0 accountability for the subprime crisis that destroyed a whole decade. In my book he was better than any of those bankers. He shown to the world that some people are smarter than the banks and that they will be severely punished if they do not abide by the laws that helps those banks to win.

obmelvin 6y ago
Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed the life savings of others. EDIT: Yes, non-profits and pension funds as well. That's not taking from the rich. Madoff was not Robin Hood.
- mathattack 6y ago
  Many non-profits who invested their endowments with him got hurt too.
- finikytou 6y ago
  no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just look at the papers from 2008 if you don't believe it.
  - obmelvin 6y ago
    So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?
    - finikytou 6y ago
      I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?
      - bidirectional 6y ago
        How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
        finikytou 6y ago
        I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
        bobthechef 6y ago
        The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
        bidirectional 6y ago
        Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-scars-remain-10-years-later https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-... (NPR: For Madoff Victims, Scars Remain 10 Years Later)
  - bidirectional 6y ago
    75% - opportunity cost - inflation. If you plan your life around having $1 million in savings because that's what your statements from Madoff say, recovering 75% of the fraction you put in is pretty bad.
kingsuper20 6y ago
"That is why Madoff ended his life in jail" That's an interesting point and probably true. The identity of your victim matters as much as the crime. It isn't like a serial car thief would receive the same sentence. I've always wondered if jail was appropriate for purely financial crimes. Maybe simply pauperizing people is the right answer and keep them pauperized from some time. Just imagine a prison system that doesn't contain financial criminals or drug cases. Transfer a certain amount of punishment to Singapore-style caning (probably a better mind-modifier than 6 months in the county clink) and you could shrink the whole industry to a tiny fraction of it's current size.

obmelvin 6y ago

Oh, please. Madoff ruined plenty of "normal" people's life savings. Say what you will about other bankers, but please don't try to elevate someone who destroyed the life savings of others. EDIT: Yes, non-profits and pension funds as well. That's not taking from the rich. Madoff was not Robin Hood.

mathattack 6y ago
Many non-profits who invested their endowments with him got hurt too.
finikytou 6y ago
no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just look at the papers from 2008 if you don't believe it.
- obmelvin 6y ago
  So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?
  - finikytou 6y ago
    I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?
    - bidirectional 6y ago
      How exactly are sell-side trading desks stealing from the poor?
      - finikytou 6y ago
        I meant Madoff would be free to do whatever he wants. But ill bite. Just look at all the robinhood millenials getting robbed by Citadel that literally has insider knowledge of all the robinhood transactions.
        bobthechef 6y ago
        The more fundamental problem is that interest is usury and usury is theft. And naturally, the entire modern banking system runs on interest (which is probably the least egregious of all the wacky financial instruments out there). You'll hear nonsense about the opportunity cost and risk, none of which have any relevance to or rebut the notion that charging interest (as opposed to just fixed administrative fees) is theft. Time isn't a commodity, so why am I paying you more the longer it takes me to pay back my loan? Is your gold and silver ewes and rams? Shylock cannot tell. He makes it breed as fast.
        bidirectional 6y ago
        Of course time is a commodity. A (potentially false promise of a) dollar in one year is less useful than a dollar tomorrow which is less useful than a dollar right now. If you do believe interest is theft and time has no value, you can act as a kind of Robin Hood by putting all of your money into bonds from Goldman Sachs, the US government or whoever you deem the worst perpetrator of this theft. You'll literally be stealing from them!
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-scars-remain-10-years-later https://www.npr.org/2018/12/23/678238031/for-madoff-victims-... (NPR: For Madoff Victims, Scars Remain 10 Years Later)
- bidirectional 6y ago
  75% - opportunity cost - inflation. If you plan your life around having $1 million in savings because that's what your statements from Madoff say, recovering 75% of the fraction you put in is pretty bad.

kingsuper20 6y ago

"That is why Madoff ended his life in jail" That's an interesting point and probably true. The identity of your victim matters as much as the crime. It isn't like a serial car thief would receive the same sentence. I've always wondered if jail was appropriate for purely financial crimes. Maybe simply pauperizing people is the right answer and keep them pauperized from some time. Just imagine a prison system that doesn't contain financial criminals or drug cases. Transfer a certain amount of punishment to Singapore-style caning (probably a better mind-modifier than 6 months in the county clink) and you could shrink the whole industry to a tiny fraction of it's current size.