4 ms·

Lower classes in Italy are not as much penalized as in the US. Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare

by pokot0 6y ago

Lower classes in Italy are not as much penalized as in the US. Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare is free for all, personal debt is not as aggressive as here, unpaid debt is a nightmare to go afer. So unemployment figures are not really that important to gauge quality of life. We had many scandals where people just didn't want to get hired and do small works off the books instead because life was just better like that. You can be broke and still have a wonderful life in Italy. If you are smart and you want to get rich: much easier in the US. Also about your Italian friends: Italian love to complain! If you ask them, they'll tell you. They will complain about everything all day with you. And then leave and go drink a nice aperitivo with their friends and enjoy the evening. It's very different from the US style of projecting an idyllic image of your life when you are with others, and then go home and drink whiskey until you forget you are alive. (Source: Italian living in US for 10 years)

bsanr2 6y ago
Too-high GDP seems to result in a de facto aristocracy which claws as much of the wealth as possible to themselves, an issue which becomes more intractable over time re: Piketty. At both the macro and micro scale, quality of life seems to peak at the upper middle class, where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side). I know that Italy isn't perfect, but the Italian-style post-Imperial "chill-out" seems to work well in a lot of ways. I'm an American with no Italian heritage, but I was born there and I think I might have imprinted a bit. I hope to go back someday.
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  > where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side) Maybe
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>people just didn't want to get hired and do small works off the books instead because life was just better like that. The blue collar industries have issues hiring junior people for exactly this reason in many of the HCOL parts of the US. Nobody in their right mind wants to suffer through a couple years as a lube and tire tech when you can work when you can get paid more fixing people's cars under the table.
- s17n 6y ago
  Sounds like the issue is that the "blue collar industries" employers need to offer higher salaries?
  - simonh 6y ago
    I'm sure their customers will completely understand, pay the higher costs without complaint, and not at all go and find alternative suppliers.
    - s17n 6y ago
      The alternative suppliers that don't have any employees?
      - simonh 6y ago
        Not necessarily in the same country.
        s17n 6y ago
        You aren't going to be able to outsource auto maintenance to the next county, much less another country. (The comment I originally replied to specifically referenced "lube and tire tech" as a role companies have trouble hiring for)
        simonh 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Hoasi 6y ago
> Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare is free for all, personal debt is not as aggressive as here, unpaid debt is a nightmare to go afer. That may be, for now, but the problems are real. For young people with degrees, wages are not comparable with those of Nothern Europe, and many end up living with their parents for years, in between poorly paid, insecure jobs. Besides, in Nothern Europe also, the social benefits and indeed the whole economy can deteriorate.
- extraAccount 6y ago
  That is quite true, its is probably very difficult for a single person in Italy to go live on their own due to house prices. But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people. I live in a neighboring country, Malta, and we share some similarities. Because our country are two small islands, housing is very expensive. So we have a unique case where a lot of people live with their parents until they get married or are in a very very stable relationship/financially well. This makes us very dependant on our parents, but it is not as bad as people make it seem. Our parents can depend on us to help and we continue saving. There isin't a lot that can be done. Moving to one of the Northern European countries will not solve the problems our Southern countries are having.
  - Hoasi 6y ago
    > But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people. I agree with your points. This familial habit is a blessing for Italians, given the direction their economy is taking. It is indeed another positive cultural value that, in this case, may even reinforce societal cohesion.

by pokot0 6y ago

bsanr2 6y ago

Too-high GDP seems to result in a de facto aristocracy which claws as much of the wealth as possible to themselves, an issue which becomes more intractable over time re: Piketty. At both the macro and micro scale, quality of life seems to peak at the upper middle class, where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side). I know that Italy isn't perfect, but the Italian-style post-Imperial "chill-out" seems to work well in a lot of ways. I'm an American with no Italian heritage, but I was born there and I think I might have imprinted a bit. I hope to go back someday.

captainredbeard 6y ago
> where there's just enough wealth that the imperative to keep everyone happy takes precedence (vs the imperative to stay at the top or keep everyone from starving on either side) Maybe

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

>people just didn't want to get hired and do small works off the books instead because life was just better like that. The blue collar industries have issues hiring junior people for exactly this reason in many of the HCOL parts of the US. Nobody in their right mind wants to suffer through a couple years as a lube and tire tech when you can work when you can get paid more fixing people's cars under the table.

s17n 6y ago
Sounds like the issue is that the "blue collar industries" employers need to offer higher salaries?
- simonh 6y ago
  I'm sure their customers will completely understand, pay the higher costs without complaint, and not at all go and find alternative suppliers.
  - s17n 6y ago
    The alternative suppliers that don't have any employees?
    - simonh 6y ago
      Not necessarily in the same country.
      - s17n 6y ago
        You aren't going to be able to outsource auto maintenance to the next county, much less another country. (The comment I originally replied to specifically referenced "lube and tire tech" as a role companies have trouble hiring for)
        simonh 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Hoasi 6y ago

> Eviction takes YEARS and it's just impossible in some situations (kids in the house), healthcare is free for all, personal debt is not as aggressive as here, unpaid debt is a nightmare to go afer. That may be, for now, but the problems are real. For young people with degrees, wages are not comparable with those of Nothern Europe, and many end up living with their parents for years, in between poorly paid, insecure jobs. Besides, in Nothern Europe also, the social benefits and indeed the whole economy can deteriorate.

extraAccount 6y ago
That is quite true, its is probably very difficult for a single person in Italy to go live on their own due to house prices. But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people. I live in a neighboring country, Malta, and we share some similarities. Because our country are two small islands, housing is very expensive. So we have a unique case where a lot of people live with their parents until they get married or are in a very very stable relationship/financially well. This makes us very dependant on our parents, but it is not as bad as people make it seem. Our parents can depend on us to help and we continue saving. There isin't a lot that can be done. Moving to one of the Northern European countries will not solve the problems our Southern countries are having.
- Hoasi 6y ago
  > But as a culture, Italians might also not feel any need to leave home as soon as other people. I agree with your points. This familial habit is a blessing for Italians, given the direction their economy is taking. It is indeed another positive cultural value that, in this case, may even reinforce societal cohesion.