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Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were a

by Tenoke 6y ago

Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
> Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good? We are talking about science, I thought. Phrases like "obviously good," really are not in the scientific spirit. Professionals also said that double-masking is even more obviously, obviously good. But that obvious obviousness was, quite obviously, wrong. [0] [0] https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-cdcs-double-mask-mannequin-study https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-cdcs-double-mask-mannequi...
- rhn_mk1 6y ago
  Nothing in the article states that double masking is not good. It merely states that the study doesn't give any reliable conclusions.
  - SiempreViernes 6y ago
    Are you saying it's obviously good, but you can't tell it helps?
    - Tenoke 6y ago
      As far as I can tell nobody but you is using the phrase 'obviously good' for that particular claim and is simply the case of a specific study being touted and then turning out it has flaws which does happen all the time and isn't what we were talking about.
jonathanstrange 6y ago
You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then. There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June. However, where I live all experts recommended wearing masks from the start. They did say that people should not rush to buy FFP2 masks and chirurgical masks at a time when there was a shortage of those for health professionals, which was definitely the right recommendation at the time. The most drastic "disrecommendation" I've ever heard by an expert was to point out that you don't need to wear a mask if you keep proper distance and follow all other hygiene measures. In a nutshell, they did recommend not to wear masks for a short time during the beginning of the pandemic but at least the experts I've heard always provided the right justification - to prevent shortage.
- Tenoke 6y ago
  >There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June You are downplaying it - they were actively taking a stance against them in the US and June was already quite late into the pandemic. The WHO themselves were advising people NOT to wear a mask and that it might be even more dangerous to wear one than not to wear it months into the pandemic.. They also only revised this in June. https://twitter.com/whowpro/status/1243171683067777024 https://twitter.com/whowpro/status/1243171683067777024
  - jonathanstrange 6y ago
    First, we'll have to ignore the US because the government interference and rampant irrationality there caused hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Regarding the EU: I feel a certain irony, because I was among those who complained that experts give the wrong advice for noble reasons (partly due to good information from HN, btw), called it a "King's Lie" and was heavily downvoted for it on various social media. So I'll be the first to admit that some officials were not as clear about it as they should have been. However, many people fail to correctly interpret official statements, especially those made by WHO at the time. You only ever officially recommend something in evidence-based medicine if there is evidence of its beneficial effects, never out of a gut feeling. They should have said "we are using masks because we believe they work but we're short of them and so you shouldn't buy them" and instead said "there is no evidence that wearing masks is beneficial and it could even be dangerous" to prevent shortage. The WHO's statement lacked transparency but if they had stated that everybody should wear masks in March 2020, the effects would have been disastrous for health authorities all over the world. National health authorities did the very same at the time, and I used to point out that a "King's Lie" like this, no matter how noble the motives, will likely backfire - as evidenced by your statements. Still, if you listened closely, no expert I know of has ever said in any interview that masks don't help. That's all I wanted to point out.

by Tenoke 6y ago

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago

> Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good? We are talking about science, I thought. Phrases like "obviously good," really are not in the scientific spirit. Professionals also said that double-masking is even more obviously, obviously good. But that obvious obviousness was, quite obviously, wrong. [0] [0] https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-cdcs-double-mask-mannequin-study https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-cdcs-double-mask-mannequi...

rhn_mk1 6y ago
Nothing in the article states that double masking is not good. It merely states that the study doesn't give any reliable conclusions.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Are you saying it's obviously good, but you can't tell it helps?
  - Tenoke 6y ago
    As far as I can tell nobody but you is using the phrase 'obviously good' for that particular claim and is simply the case of a specific study being touted and then turning out it has flaws which does happen all the time and isn't what we were talking about.

jonathanstrange 6y ago

You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then. There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June. However, where I live all experts recommended wearing masks from the start. They did say that people should not rush to buy FFP2 masks and chirurgical masks at a time when there was a shortage of those for health professionals, which was definitely the right recommendation at the time. The most drastic "disrecommendation" I've ever heard by an expert was to point out that you don't need to wear a mask if you keep proper distance and follow all other hygiene measures. In a nutshell, they did recommend not to wear masks for a short time during the beginning of the pandemic but at least the experts I've heard always provided the right justification - to prevent shortage.

Tenoke 6y ago
>There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June You are downplaying it - they were actively taking a stance against them in the US and June was already quite late into the pandemic. The WHO themselves were advising people NOT to wear a mask and that it might be even more dangerous to wear one than not to wear it months into the pandemic.. They also only revised this in June. https://twitter.com/whowpro/status/1243171683067777024 https://twitter.com/whowpro/status/1243171683067777024
- jonathanstrange 6y ago
  First, we'll have to ignore the US because the government interference and rampant irrationality there caused hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Regarding the EU: I feel a certain irony, because I was among those who complained that experts give the wrong advice for noble reasons (partly due to good information from HN, btw), called it a "King's Lie" and was heavily downvoted for it on various social media. So I'll be the first to admit that some officials were not as clear about it as they should have been. However, many people fail to correctly interpret official statements, especially those made by WHO at the time. You only ever officially recommend something in evidence-based medicine if there is evidence of its beneficial effects, never out of a gut feeling. They should have said "we are using masks because we believe they work but we're short of them and so you shouldn't buy them" and instead said "there is no evidence that wearing masks is beneficial and it could even be dangerous" to prevent shortage. The WHO's statement lacked transparency but if they had stated that everybody should wear masks in March 2020, the effects would have been disastrous for health authorities all over the world. National health authorities did the very same at the time, and I used to point out that a "King's Lie" like this, no matter how noble the motives, will likely backfire - as evidenced by your statements. Still, if you listened closely, no expert I know of has ever said in any interview that masks don't help. That's all I wanted to point out.