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Thank you for clarifying. But how would IR35 apply in this case - she was an employee anyway, not a contractor and did not have her own limited company.

by feurio 5y ago

varispeed 5y ago
There is a plausible approach https://norightsemployee.uk/step-by-step https://norightsemployee.uk/step-by-step but it doesn't address the limited company issue. It is possible to work inside IR35 without having own company, but I have not seen many materials about that, so I'll leave it. Company formation is very quick and can be automated and there are already companies who automate accounting related to this. The structure would have to look like this: - deemed employee gets a job offer, he or she accepts - company creates limited company on worker's behalf and creates an agreement with a fee payer - it must contain clauses limiting substitution and few other to ensure it falls in scope of IR35. - Fee payer is an intermediary between employer and worker that pays tax on behalf of the worker and sends his or hers salary to their company account. (these companies already exist) - all accounting for worker's company can be automated (there will be no Corporation Tax to pay etc.) This may seem complex, but I can imagine it gets streamlined quickly when companies see the benefits.
- feurio 5y ago
  The site you reference reeks of disingenuity, so I shall regard your arguments with a great degree of skepticism. Which is annoying, as I am very uncomfortable with the march towards zero hour contracts and the like - if you are genuine and not just an IT contractor who is pissed off that they can't do the usual IR35 tax dodges, then you do yourself a disservice citing such a ropey website :-(
  - varispeed 5y ago
    I linked to this website as I thought despite this "let's help corporations exploit workers" theme, the information it has is quite concise and true. You can also check this report http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/How-Contracting-Should-Work-Inquiry-Report-April-2021-min.pdf http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/H... This is not only affecting IT contractors but anyone can be hired with such contract.
    - feurio 5y ago
      > The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers. But you say things like this from a reply above, and they simply do not apply to "any workers" (ie. employees) - only those that are specifically taken on as contractors. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow to find that it applies to me as I'm an employee, not a contractor. I know this is your special hobby horse, but it has no bearing on this story.
      - varispeed 5y ago
        Ok, but company can fire you and give you a contractor contract as take it or leave it. It's legal. An example from today: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/14/hundreds-british-gas-engineers-lose-jobs-fire-and-rehire-scheme-tougher-employment-terms https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/14/hundreds-br...
        feurio 5y ago
        That story has nothing to do with IR35. Really, I could swear you were a right-wing troll trying to get me to care less about employee rights by being so obscure about it all.
        varispeed 5y ago
        It seems like you are moving goal posts. I demonstrated that a mechanism to convert employee into a contractor is possible. The British Gas could have given them any type of contract.

Thank you for clarifying. But how would IR35 apply in this case - she was an employee anyway, not a contractor and did not have her own limited company.

by feurio 5y ago

Thank you for clarifying. But how would IR35 apply in this case - she was an employee anyway, not a contractor and did not have her own limited company.

varispeed 5y ago

There is a plausible approach https://norightsemployee.uk/step-by-step https://norightsemployee.uk/step-by-step but it doesn't address the limited company issue. It is possible to work inside IR35 without having own company, but I have not seen many materials about that, so I'll leave it. Company formation is very quick and can be automated and there are already companies who automate accounting related to this. The structure would have to look like this: - deemed employee gets a job offer, he or she accepts - company creates limited company on worker's behalf and creates an agreement with a fee payer - it must contain clauses limiting substitution and few other to ensure it falls in scope of IR35. - Fee payer is an intermediary between employer and worker that pays tax on behalf of the worker and sends his or hers salary to their company account. (these companies already exist) - all accounting for worker's company can be automated (there will be no Corporation Tax to pay etc.) This may seem complex, but I can imagine it gets streamlined quickly when companies see the benefits.

feurio 5y ago
The site you reference reeks of disingenuity, so I shall regard your arguments with a great degree of skepticism. Which is annoying, as I am very uncomfortable with the march towards zero hour contracts and the like - if you are genuine and not just an IT contractor who is pissed off that they can't do the usual IR35 tax dodges, then you do yourself a disservice citing such a ropey website :-(
- varispeed 5y ago
  I linked to this website as I thought despite this "let's help corporations exploit workers" theme, the information it has is quite concise and true. You can also check this report http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/How-Contracting-Should-Work-Inquiry-Report-April-2021-min.pdf http://www.loanchargeappg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/H... This is not only affecting IT contractors but anyone can be hired with such contract.
  - feurio 5y ago
    > The articles refer to those workers as contractors and mainly focus on IT market, but these rules can be applied to any workers. But you say things like this from a reply above, and they simply do not apply to "any workers" (ie. employees) - only those that are specifically taken on as contractors. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow to find that it applies to me as I'm an employee, not a contractor. I know this is your special hobby horse, but it has no bearing on this story.
    - varispeed 5y ago
      Ok, but company can fire you and give you a contractor contract as take it or leave it. It's legal. An example from today: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/14/hundreds-british-gas-engineers-lose-jobs-fire-and-rehire-scheme-tougher-employment-terms https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/14/hundreds-br...
      - feurio 5y ago
        That story has nothing to do with IR35. Really, I could swear you were a right-wing troll trying to get me to care less about employee rights by being so obscure about it all.
        varispeed 5y ago
        It seems like you are moving goal posts. I demonstrated that a mechanism to convert employee into a contractor is possible. The British Gas could have given them any type of contract.