4 ms·

Then they will die. You can't save people from themselves.

by djbebs 6y ago

hkt 6y ago
This attitude is precisely why people pursue socialist policies. I'm from the UK and have benefited hugely from socialist healthcare policies that even our conservatives pay lip service to supporting. There's an awful lot of libertarian, social darwinist claptrap in threads on this post. It gets away from the fact that what has happened is a relatively newly capitalist country has made a very substantial error to its citizens' cost, and there exists a possibility of injustice alongside the possibility that the rule of law may appear to be being ignored, depending on when the law changed. It isn't an opportunity to be performatively callous.
jariel 6y ago
This is the thinking of poor countries, like Croatia, Zambia, Tajikistan. All rich countries have some kind of basic retirement benefits and some measure public medical care (the US spends more per capita on socialized medicine than does Canada) - this is partly why they are rich. It's not even controversial anymore, it hasn't been for 70 years.
- neartheplain 6y ago
  >This is the thinking of poor countries, like Croatia Croatia’s had pretty decent universal healthcare for many years.
- Annatar 6y ago
  Croatia is anything but poor; can you imagine how rich a country must be to support Western Europe with labor, natural resources, defense and financial wealth for 600 years without interruptions? I know of no other country which has managed such a feat hitherto, do you? Croats just save differently to others due to corruption and adversity in their country: an average Croat's wealth is in real estate. As there is no real estate tax on primary abode, real estate ownership is high, while the mortgage debt is almost nonexistent. Where do you think 7.5 billion euros which pour in every Summer from tourism go? That money mostly ends up in the newly built villas on the coast.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "mortgage debt is almost nonexistent. " This doesn't make a lot of sense, if there is low interest rates and no estate or real estate tax, then people should naturally have considerable leverage.
    - Annatar 6y ago
      That's because in Croatia, banks have often been the focal points of financial crime deeply intertwined with political crime; as the justice system isn't functional, the banks constantly and literally swindled citizens, so the average Croat does not take out a mortgage and does not trust any institutions. For example, several years ago, lots of people were intentionally misled by the banks providing loans in kunas which were tied to the swiss franc. When the Swiss National Bank lifted the peg in 2012, the franc, being the safe harbor currency, skyrocketed in value. The banks immediately demanded higher interest, which the loan consumers were of course unable to financially bear. The whole debacle ended up going all the way to the supreme court where it was finally overturned. Up until that point, the banks did not care and kept bankrupting people without so much as batting an eyelash. This is just one example. In the '90's, bank of Ljubljana simply froze, then siphoned off all of their Croatian customers' assets in Croatia to their central office in Slovenia. Nobody ever saw any of their money up to this present day, and are unlikely to ever see it. Nobody went to jail, and it is unlikely anyone ever will. There are a sea of such examples in that country. This is why in Croatia, one borrows cash from family, relatives and friends at no interest, rather than get screwed over by the state and all kinds of private institutions, none of which can be trusted. Croats have zero confidence in their government or anyone else for that matter, sometimes they do not, or cannot even trust their own family or would-be friends.
      - jariel 6y ago
        If that's the case, then none of the aforementioned issues matter one bit. It's pointless to talk about the efficiency of public systems, for even the effectiveness of wealth taxes etc. if corruption is endemic, particularly in the financial sector. If the banking sector is corrupt - there can be no real economy. And FYI this notion of 'no mortgage debt' as something healthy is completely wrong. 'Credit' is the lifeblood of an economy, if you want to get people into good housing, it's essential. Mortgages enable people to spread payments out over time and are a fundamental artifact of affordability. Mo mortgages = bad housing and fewer jobs in the construction sector. There can be risk of housing bubbles etc. but that can be effectively managed. Or should be, a lot of countries struggle with that.
inglor_cz 6y ago
In Serbia, a country that suffered government-caused hyperinflation, the idea is ask people to save money for retirement will meet some justified distrust. Not to mention that it is a low-income country where people have smaller margins from which to save. You can't just forgo a holiday in Bahamas to save some money if you cannot afford said holiday in the first place.

Then they will die. You can't save people from themselves.

by djbebs 6y ago

Then they will die. You can't save people from themselves.

hkt 6y ago

This attitude is precisely why people pursue socialist policies. I'm from the UK and have benefited hugely from socialist healthcare policies that even our conservatives pay lip service to supporting. There's an awful lot of libertarian, social darwinist claptrap in threads on this post. It gets away from the fact that what has happened is a relatively newly capitalist country has made a very substantial error to its citizens' cost, and there exists a possibility of injustice alongside the possibility that the rule of law may appear to be being ignored, depending on when the law changed. It isn't an opportunity to be performatively callous.

jariel 6y ago

This is the thinking of poor countries, like Croatia, Zambia, Tajikistan. All rich countries have some kind of basic retirement benefits and some measure public medical care (the US spends more per capita on socialized medicine than does Canada) - this is partly why they are rich. It's not even controversial anymore, it hasn't been for 70 years.

neartheplain 6y ago
>This is the thinking of poor countries, like Croatia Croatia’s had pretty decent universal healthcare for many years.
Annatar 6y ago
Croatia is anything but poor; can you imagine how rich a country must be to support Western Europe with labor, natural resources, defense and financial wealth for 600 years without interruptions? I know of no other country which has managed such a feat hitherto, do you? Croats just save differently to others due to corruption and adversity in their country: an average Croat's wealth is in real estate. As there is no real estate tax on primary abode, real estate ownership is high, while the mortgage debt is almost nonexistent. Where do you think 7.5 billion euros which pour in every Summer from tourism go? That money mostly ends up in the newly built villas on the coast.
- jariel 6y ago
  "mortgage debt is almost nonexistent. " This doesn't make a lot of sense, if there is low interest rates and no estate or real estate tax, then people should naturally have considerable leverage.
  - Annatar 6y ago
    That's because in Croatia, banks have often been the focal points of financial crime deeply intertwined with political crime; as the justice system isn't functional, the banks constantly and literally swindled citizens, so the average Croat does not take out a mortgage and does not trust any institutions. For example, several years ago, lots of people were intentionally misled by the banks providing loans in kunas which were tied to the swiss franc. When the Swiss National Bank lifted the peg in 2012, the franc, being the safe harbor currency, skyrocketed in value. The banks immediately demanded higher interest, which the loan consumers were of course unable to financially bear. The whole debacle ended up going all the way to the supreme court where it was finally overturned. Up until that point, the banks did not care and kept bankrupting people without so much as batting an eyelash. This is just one example. In the '90's, bank of Ljubljana simply froze, then siphoned off all of their Croatian customers' assets in Croatia to their central office in Slovenia. Nobody ever saw any of their money up to this present day, and are unlikely to ever see it. Nobody went to jail, and it is unlikely anyone ever will. There are a sea of such examples in that country. This is why in Croatia, one borrows cash from family, relatives and friends at no interest, rather than get screwed over by the state and all kinds of private institutions, none of which can be trusted. Croats have zero confidence in their government or anyone else for that matter, sometimes they do not, or cannot even trust their own family or would-be friends.
    - jariel 6y ago
      If that's the case, then none of the aforementioned issues matter one bit. It's pointless to talk about the efficiency of public systems, for even the effectiveness of wealth taxes etc. if corruption is endemic, particularly in the financial sector. If the banking sector is corrupt - there can be no real economy. And FYI this notion of 'no mortgage debt' as something healthy is completely wrong. 'Credit' is the lifeblood of an economy, if you want to get people into good housing, it's essential. Mortgages enable people to spread payments out over time and are a fundamental artifact of affordability. Mo mortgages = bad housing and fewer jobs in the construction sector. There can be risk of housing bubbles etc. but that can be effectively managed. Or should be, a lot of countries struggle with that.

inglor_cz 6y ago

In Serbia, a country that suffered government-caused hyperinflation, the idea is ask people to save money for retirement will meet some justified distrust. Not to mention that it is a low-income country where people have smaller margins from which to save. You can't just forgo a holiday in Bahamas to save some money if you cannot afford said holiday in the first place.