4 ms·

sure... people can only scam you, or beat you, or rape you, or kill you... or worse. About the jail, it's not that we live in a "banana republic" or in a dicta

by _ZeD_ 6y ago

sure... people can only scam you, or beat you, or rape you, or kill you... or worse. About the jail, it's not that we live in a "banana republic" or in a dictatorship. You have right to a fair trial.

gambiting 6y ago
I don't know where you live, but even though yes, such a right exists, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fear the government or its actions. US is extremely bad about this, but most western countries have this problem - let's say that you get accused of something(unfairly). In most western countries(with some exceptions) media can immediately print "_ZeD_ has been arrested on suspicion of murder!". You are usually arrested and kept until trial if the accusation is strong enough. In the meantime, you lose your job. You lose your friends and family support, except for the select few who actually believe your innocence. Your neighbours immediately know they live next to a murderer(even though nothing has been proven yet). And yes, in some countries(US....) you can be waiting a year for trial. Then, the trial is meant to be "fair", but surprise, it's a jury trial - the very opposite of fair, it's basically 12 random people deciding whether you should go to prison or not. 12 people who have spent the last year watching the news explaining how guilty you are and how the local police department is certain they "have the right guy". But sure, you got your "fair trial". But let's say you win. You are cleared of all charges, and are free to go. The government will not automatically reimburse you for the time you spent in jail(or some very nominal amount), your old employer is not required to give you your job back, and there will forever be people around you who secretly think you are actually guilty and just managed to escape justice. Or, you could just not trust the government and never ever put yourself in a situation which increases any chances of being accused of anything, fairly or not. The government has infinite amount of money and time to make your life miserable if someone is dedicated enough. They can make your life absolute hell or basically put you in a never ending loop of trials, which even if you keep winning, they can just bring more on, while your life is ruined. A private corporation can also make your life hell, but the only difference here is that at the very least, they would have to have a financial reason to do so. The government doesn't need that reason, all you need is one career prosecutor who thinks they can get a nice reputation by making an example of you. And the funny thing is, I generally trust our justice system(here in UK at least). I trust the police, I trust the court system. And yet I would never ever willingly give the government any information that is not absolutely 100% required by law for some essential function. Nuh uh. Nope.
- imoverclocked 6y ago
  The government does need an incentive to do something. It may still be financial… it may also be political. However, corporations are not immune from either of those incentives either. It’s true that the consequences are different but it seems like different doesn’t necessarily mean worse. Giving information out to anyone that doesn’t absolutely need it seems the best policy here. I see no reason to specifically target the/a government. OTOH, broadband connectivity in the US is notoriously spotty and monopolized. Getting bandwidth data and visibility into this is the first step in potentially fixing the problem.
renewiltord 6y ago
People can't beat me, rape me, or kill me by stealing my data. The gov can (and often will) jail me if the data it's stolen is stuff it doesn't like. Like if I happen to be buying shrooms from a friend who grew them. No thanks.
stevenicr 6y ago
and if both are caught and two different trials are set - most juries, most judges, prosecutors are more likely to believe an operative of the state vs you.. as compared to random citizen vs same. In many cases, laws of qualified immunity takes care of it for them regardless of what 'truth' is discerned from he said she said. It was only just recently they finally made it not-legal for NYPD to rape people they detain. I've got several saved articles showing many people who have suffered such treatment - you don't see that many with non-state folks. similar with beating, killing etc. I understand this varies a bit on which town or city you may be in across the states, however in most places the feds still help the men in blue take your cash at gun point with further threats of violence, loss of freedom and more.. and if you want your money back you can't get someone to arrest them and prosecute them - you have to hire counsel and go to court against state to try to prove your money innocent. About the non-banana - fair trial - sure it's a right, and I am glad that we have it. However most people will not be able afford a fair trial in the US. This is one reason so many cases are turned into plea-bargains. Many people can not afford to take days off work and pay for parking at the courthouse, much less a competent lawyer that would be affordable for a 'fair trial'. Robert Kraft was able to afford the legal team for a truly 'fair trial' and was able to essentially put the state on trial for their actions, which got his handjob dismissed - but most people don't have that kind of money to spend and instead get railroaded by the state at all levels doj. And if you are super rich you still have to contend with bad PR through the news when dealing with the state's people with guns - which can affect jobs, family, friends - even if you are innocent - even if you afford you days in court and get out of jail proven so. fair trials are more fair for those people who are paid to be there opposed to those who are paying imho - ymmv.

by _ZeD_ 6y ago

sure... people can only scam you, or beat you, or rape you, or kill you... or worse. About the jail, it's not that we live in a "banana republic" or in a dictatorship. You have right to a fair trial.

gambiting 6y ago

I don't know where you live, but even though yes, such a right exists, it doesn't mean you shouldn't fear the government or its actions. US is extremely bad about this, but most western countries have this problem - let's say that you get accused of something(unfairly). In most western countries(with some exceptions) media can immediately print "_ZeD_ has been arrested on suspicion of murder!". You are usually arrested and kept until trial if the accusation is strong enough. In the meantime, you lose your job. You lose your friends and family support, except for the select few who actually believe your innocence. Your neighbours immediately know they live next to a murderer(even though nothing has been proven yet). And yes, in some countries(US....) you can be waiting a year for trial. Then, the trial is meant to be "fair", but surprise, it's a jury trial - the very opposite of fair, it's basically 12 random people deciding whether you should go to prison or not. 12 people who have spent the last year watching the news explaining how guilty you are and how the local police department is certain they "have the right guy". But sure, you got your "fair trial". But let's say you win. You are cleared of all charges, and are free to go. The government will not automatically reimburse you for the time you spent in jail(or some very nominal amount), your old employer is not required to give you your job back, and there will forever be people around you who secretly think you are actually guilty and just managed to escape justice. Or, you could just not trust the government and never ever put yourself in a situation which increases any chances of being accused of anything, fairly or not. The government has infinite amount of money and time to make your life miserable if someone is dedicated enough. They can make your life absolute hell or basically put you in a never ending loop of trials, which even if you keep winning, they can just bring more on, while your life is ruined. A private corporation can also make your life hell, but the only difference here is that at the very least, they would have to have a financial reason to do so. The government doesn't need that reason, all you need is one career prosecutor who thinks they can get a nice reputation by making an example of you. And the funny thing is, I generally trust our justice system(here in UK at least). I trust the police, I trust the court system. And yet I would never ever willingly give the government any information that is not absolutely 100% required by law for some essential function. Nuh uh. Nope.

imoverclocked 6y ago
The government does need an incentive to do something. It may still be financial… it may also be political. However, corporations are not immune from either of those incentives either. It’s true that the consequences are different but it seems like different doesn’t necessarily mean worse. Giving information out to anyone that doesn’t absolutely need it seems the best policy here. I see no reason to specifically target the/a government. OTOH, broadband connectivity in the US is notoriously spotty and monopolized. Getting bandwidth data and visibility into this is the first step in potentially fixing the problem.

renewiltord 6y ago

People can't beat me, rape me, or kill me by stealing my data. The gov can (and often will) jail me if the data it's stolen is stuff it doesn't like. Like if I happen to be buying shrooms from a friend who grew them. No thanks.

stevenicr 6y ago

and if both are caught and two different trials are set - most juries, most judges, prosecutors are more likely to believe an operative of the state vs you.. as compared to random citizen vs same. In many cases, laws of qualified immunity takes care of it for them regardless of what 'truth' is discerned from he said she said. It was only just recently they finally made it not-legal for NYPD to rape people they detain. I've got several saved articles showing many people who have suffered such treatment - you don't see that many with non-state folks. similar with beating, killing etc. I understand this varies a bit on which town or city you may be in across the states, however in most places the feds still help the men in blue take your cash at gun point with further threats of violence, loss of freedom and more.. and if you want your money back you can't get someone to arrest them and prosecute them - you have to hire counsel and go to court against state to try to prove your money innocent. About the non-banana - fair trial - sure it's a right, and I am glad that we have it. However most people will not be able afford a fair trial in the US. This is one reason so many cases are turned into plea-bargains. Many people can not afford to take days off work and pay for parking at the courthouse, much less a competent lawyer that would be affordable for a 'fair trial'. Robert Kraft was able to afford the legal team for a truly 'fair trial' and was able to essentially put the state on trial for their actions, which got his handjob dismissed - but most people don't have that kind of money to spend and instead get railroaded by the state at all levels doj. And if you are super rich you still have to contend with bad PR through the news when dealing with the state's people with guns - which can affect jobs, family, friends - even if you are innocent - even if you afford you days in court and get out of jail proven so. fair trials are more fair for those people who are paid to be there opposed to those who are paying imho - ymmv.