8 ms·

An enigmatic Javanese manuscript in the British Library

44 points by benbreen 6y ago

desireco42 6y ago
Is there anything British didn't stole? I am asking for me Greek friend ;)
bellyfullofbac 6y ago
One of my ideas was to have a t-shirt that says "Javascript", written in Javanese script... But the script looks very complicated so this idea never got anywhere.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  Try plugging "Aksara Jawa" (Javanese for "Java Script") or "Jawasekrip" (phonetic approximation of the English) into here: https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript You'll likely need to install a Javanese font though.
  - bradrn 6y ago
    I don’t know too much about Javanese, but I’m pretty sure that generator is rubbish. e.g. for input ‘ja’, it gives ‘ꦗꦄ’, when it should be just ‘ꦗ’. It appears to be doing a simple letter-for-letter substitution, which is incorrect: for instance, it ends up replacing every vowel in the Latin transcription with a separate vowel letter, while vowels after a consonant should be represented using a diacritic in Javanese (and other Indic scripts).
- bradrn 6y ago
  This sounded an interesting challenge, so I decided to have a go at it. Here’s my best attempt: ꧁ꦗꦥ꦳ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ꧂ / or as an image: https://i.imgur.com/kRq6o88.png https://i.imgur.com/kRq6o88.png. An explanation, because it’s interesting: Javanese script is an abugida, like all other Brahmi-derived scripts. This means that each letter has an inherent vowel; thus, a letter by itself represents a whole syllable, starting with that consonant and ending with the inherent vowel. In Javanese, the inherent vowel is /a/, so the first two letters ꦗꦥ꦳ represent the two syllables /ja va/. (The dots on the second letter indicate that /v/ isn’t a native sound; the closest you can get natively is ꦗꦮ /ja wa/.) The next syllable /skri/ is ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶ, which has a few components, so let’s break it down. Firstly, vowel change is achieved by adding a diacritic; e.g. /ja wi/ would be ꦗꦮꦶ, with the diacritic ◌ꦶ for /-i/. You get consonant clusters using the conjunct form of a consonant — the second consonant in a cluster is changed to its conjunct form and placed below (or sometimes next to) the first consonant. e.g. /ka/ is ꦏ, while /sa/ ꦱ can be converted to /ska/ ꦱ꧀ꦏ by placing the conjunct form of ꦏ below ꦱ. (In Unicode, the conjuncts are not encoded separately, being a combination of the first consonant in the cluster with a pangkon, but that’s a discussion for another time.) Finally, the syllable gains a medial /-r-/ from the ‘cakra’ diacritic ◌ ꦿ wrapped around the syllable. So: starting from /sa/ ꦱ, add the conjunct /ska/ ꦱ꧀ꦏ, then add the cakra giving /skra/ ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿ, and then finally add the vowel diacritic giving /skri/ ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶ. The final letter ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ represents /ptə/, and is formed by similar principles: /pa/ ꦥ → /pta/ ꦥ꧀ꦠ → /ptə/ ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ. (Or possibly should it be /pʈə/ ꦥ꧀ꦛꦼ? But ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ sounds the same to English-speakers, and looks nicer in context.) Finally, I added ꧁꧂ around it to look nice — in authentic Javanese manuscripts, these punctuation marks are used surrounding titles. EDIT: I forgot to mention why I split up the last English syllable /skɹɪpt/ into two syllables /skrip.tə/ — it’s because Javanese syllables can’t end in /-pt/, so I have to insert a vowel afterwards to make the English word fit into Javanese orthography. (And then the orthography adds an extra layer of complication, because the two syllables /skrip.tə/ end up being written as orthographic /skri ptə/, with the /p/ being moved to the beginning of the next syllable block, because Javanese script can only write initial consonant clusters… I think; this is one of the bits I’m a bit unsure about here.)
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    HN comment of the decade, right here folks.
    - bradrn 6y ago
      Why, thank you! I’m just glad you found it interesting.
  - valarauko 6y ago
    I'm assuming this is using 'modern' Javanese orthography - how different would it be with the orthography for Sanskrit texts?
    - bradrn 6y ago
      I’m not entirely sure, but I don’t think it would be particularly different — if I understand correctly, the only major difference between the two orthographies is that Sanskrit texts use some extra letters.
      - valarauko 6y ago
        I believe there are special forms for some consonant clusters, which would be relatively common in Sanskrit texts.
        bradrn 6y ago
        Are there? If so, I haven’t heard of them — I thought that consonant clusters were formed by regularly adding the conjunct form of the second consonant below the first consonant. (I do know that Devanāgarī and closely-related scripts represent clusters using irregular ligatures of consonants, but I don’t believe this method is used in Javanese.)
  - thunderbong 6y ago
    That was amazing! And the word looks so beautiful! Thank you. I read your entire comment and one weird thought came to me at the end of it - everything is complex when it comes to Javascript!
Koshkin 6y ago
A beautiful script. More examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script#Sample_texts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script#Sample_texts.
mkrazzledazzle 6y ago
Interesting, how did it just end up in the british library? Why is there an aspect of romanticization to the fact that it is in a british library? Why isn't it in a library in indonesia? Let me guess..if it were not for the british having looted it with the express purpose of "preservation", the world would not have come to know about this.
- foobarian 6y ago
  Sadly you are probably right about that. And so here we are...
- INTPenis 6y ago
  You're right of course and I would have made the same point, but to play british advocate for a second; the javanese might not have had a good place to store it when it was stolen. It should definitely be returned now but the british might have saved thousands of artefacts by stealing them from other less stable regions.
- alimw 6y ago
  I imagine it was bought with money.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    I looked it up (well, kinda). It's from the Crawfurd collection. Some were looted by the British, but most were bought or acquired by normal means. https://www.academia.edu/43066387/The_Origins_of_the_John_Crawfurd_Collection_of_Javanese_Manuscripts_in_the_British_Library_An_Overview https://www.academia.edu/43066387/The_Origins_of_the_John_Cr... Also, turns out Crawfurd was a political "radical" of the time, calling for universal suffrage, secret ballots, and public education.
tenaciousDaniel 6y ago
My brain read the title as "Javascript manuscript" and I was extremely confused for a few moments.
- monsieurbanana 6y ago
  Your comment made me look at the title again, and it's not "Japanese" like I first thought...

44 points by benbreen 6y ago

Is there anything British didn't stole? I am asking for me Greek friend ;)

One of my ideas was to have a t-shirt that says "Javascript", written in Javanese script... But the script looks very complicated so this idea never got anywhere.

Clewza313 6y ago
Try plugging "Aksara Jawa" (Javanese for "Java Script") or "Jawasekrip" (phonetic approximation of the English) into here: https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript You'll likely need to install a Javanese font though.
- bradrn 6y ago
  I don’t know too much about Javanese, but I’m pretty sure that generator is rubbish. e.g. for input ‘ja’, it gives ‘ꦗꦄ’, when it should be just ‘ꦗ’. It appears to be doing a simple letter-for-letter substitution, which is incorrect: for instance, it ends up replacing every vowel in the Latin transcription with a separate vowel letter, while vowels after a consonant should be represented using a diacritic in Javanese (and other Indic scripts).
bradrn 6y ago
This sounded an interesting challenge, so I decided to have a go at it. Here’s my best attempt: ꧁ꦗꦥ꦳ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ꧂ / or as an image: https://i.imgur.com/kRq6o88.png https://i.imgur.com/kRq6o88.png. An explanation, because it’s interesting: Javanese script is an abugida, like all other Brahmi-derived scripts. This means that each letter has an inherent vowel; thus, a letter by itself represents a whole syllable, starting with that consonant and ending with the inherent vowel. In Javanese, the inherent vowel is /a/, so the first two letters ꦗꦥ꦳ represent the two syllables /ja va/. (The dots on the second letter indicate that /v/ isn’t a native sound; the closest you can get natively is ꦗꦮ /ja wa/.) The next syllable /skri/ is ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶ, which has a few components, so let’s break it down. Firstly, vowel change is achieved by adding a diacritic; e.g. /ja wi/ would be ꦗꦮꦶ, with the diacritic ◌ꦶ for /-i/. You get consonant clusters using the conjunct form of a consonant — the second consonant in a cluster is changed to its conjunct form and placed below (or sometimes next to) the first consonant. e.g. /ka/ is ꦏ, while /sa/ ꦱ can be converted to /ska/ ꦱ꧀ꦏ by placing the conjunct form of ꦏ below ꦱ. (In Unicode, the conjuncts are not encoded separately, being a combination of the first consonant in the cluster with a pangkon, but that’s a discussion for another time.) Finally, the syllable gains a medial /-r-/ from the ‘cakra’ diacritic ◌ ꦿ wrapped around the syllable. So: starting from /sa/ ꦱ, add the conjunct /ska/ ꦱ꧀ꦏ, then add the cakra giving /skra/ ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿ, and then finally add the vowel diacritic giving /skri/ ꦱ꧀ꦏꦿꦶ. The final letter ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ represents /ptə/, and is formed by similar principles: /pa/ ꦥ → /pta/ ꦥ꧀ꦠ → /ptə/ ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ. (Or possibly should it be /pʈə/ ꦥ꧀ꦛꦼ? But ꦥ꧀ꦠꦼ sounds the same to English-speakers, and looks nicer in context.) Finally, I added ꧁꧂ around it to look nice — in authentic Javanese manuscripts, these punctuation marks are used surrounding titles. EDIT: I forgot to mention why I split up the last English syllable /skɹɪpt/ into two syllables /skrip.tə/ — it’s because Javanese syllables can’t end in /-pt/, so I have to insert a vowel afterwards to make the English word fit into Javanese orthography. (And then the orthography adds an extra layer of complication, because the two syllables /skrip.tə/ end up being written as orthographic /skri ptə/, with the /p/ being moved to the beginning of the next syllable block, because Javanese script can only write initial consonant clusters… I think; this is one of the bits I’m a bit unsure about here.)
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  HN comment of the decade, right here folks.
  - bradrn 6y ago
    Why, thank you! I’m just glad you found it interesting.
- valarauko 6y ago
  I'm assuming this is using 'modern' Javanese orthography - how different would it be with the orthography for Sanskrit texts?
  - bradrn 6y ago
    I’m not entirely sure, but I don’t think it would be particularly different — if I understand correctly, the only major difference between the two orthographies is that Sanskrit texts use some extra letters.
    - valarauko 6y ago
      I believe there are special forms for some consonant clusters, which would be relatively common in Sanskrit texts.
      - bradrn 6y ago
        Are there? If so, I haven’t heard of them — I thought that consonant clusters were formed by regularly adding the conjunct form of the second consonant below the first consonant. (I do know that Devanāgarī and closely-related scripts represent clusters using irregular ligatures of consonants, but I don’t believe this method is used in Javanese.)
- thunderbong 6y ago
  That was amazing! And the word looks so beautiful! Thank you. I read your entire comment and one weird thought came to me at the end of it - everything is complex when it comes to Javascript!

Koshkin 6y ago

A beautiful script. More examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script#Sample_texts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script#Sample_texts.

mkrazzledazzle 6y ago

Interesting, how did it just end up in the british library? Why is there an aspect of romanticization to the fact that it is in a british library? Why isn't it in a library in indonesia? Let me guess..if it were not for the british having looted it with the express purpose of "preservation", the world would not have come to know about this.

foobarian 6y ago
Sadly you are probably right about that. And so here we are...
INTPenis 6y ago
You're right of course and I would have made the same point, but to play british advocate for a second; the javanese might not have had a good place to store it when it was stolen. It should definitely be returned now but the british might have saved thousands of artefacts by stealing them from other less stable regions.
alimw 6y ago
I imagine it was bought with money.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  I looked it up (well, kinda). It's from the Crawfurd collection. Some were looted by the British, but most were bought or acquired by normal means. https://www.academia.edu/43066387/The_Origins_of_the_John_Crawfurd_Collection_of_Javanese_Manuscripts_in_the_British_Library_An_Overview https://www.academia.edu/43066387/The_Origins_of_the_John_Cr... Also, turns out Crawfurd was a political "radical" of the time, calling for universal suffrage, secret ballots, and public education.

tenaciousDaniel 6y ago

My brain read the title as "Javascript manuscript" and I was extremely confused for a few moments.

monsieurbanana 6y ago
Your comment made me look at the title again, and it's not "Japanese" like I first thought...