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Images of Hatha Yoga from the Joga Pradīpikā (19th Century)

117 points by Thevet 6y ago

cies 6y ago
I learned somewhere that common modern Yoga poses have been influenced a lot by Swedish gymnastics. https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2012/oct/03/straight-yoga-swedish/ https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2012/oct/03/straight-yog... https://jfdeters.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/the-myth-of-yoga/ https://jfdeters.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/the-myth-of-yoga/ https://theconversation.com/from-india-with-love-how-yoga-got-its-stretch-back-79593 https://theconversation.com/from-india-with-love-how-yoga-go...
- FlyingSnake 6y ago
  This is either willfully ignorant statement or simply malicious thought to discredit Yoga from it's ancient roots. A blog post of cherry-picked, unsourced comments doesn't prove that modern Yoga poses are Swedish. Yoga is a ancient system and like many systems in the orient, it is quite malleable and has been modernized with time. There are many aspects of Yoga and merely reducing it to "certain body poses" and claiming it's Swedish, is cultural appropriation at it's finest.
  - limbicsystem 6y ago
    I'm not sure I detect either ignorance or 'malicious thought' in the parent post. It is clearly true that much of modern Yoga practise in the west >is< influenced by other cultures (the Swedish / British keep fit programmes of the 1920s for example). It can also be true that Yoga has deep cultural roots that extend far into the distant past. The parent does not 'reduce' Yoga to certain body poses - you are both effectively agreeing with each other that it is a malleable system that has modernised (significantly) over the past 100 years or so. I would love to know what a C19th Hatha Yoga practitioner from those illustrations would make of the explosion of different styles that have evolved today. I would hope that they and, say, Tim Senesei or Adrianne Mishler might be able to have an interesting (and respectful) conversation.
    - cies 6y ago
      Exactly. I was not discrediting, I just saw the poses in the images and thought "interesting how little of these i know from modern yoga". Then I remembered the recent evolution story of yoga.
    - sundarurfriend 6y ago
      > much of modern Yoga practise in the west That's a shift in goalposts from the original post's claim of "common modern Yoga poses" - Yoga practise in the west is only a small portion of modern Yoga in general. There's a difference between saying "common modern English borrows a lot from Hindi grammar" and "modern English spoken in India borrows a lot from Hindi grammar" - and there's as much difference between your statement and the statement the original comment made.
      - harimau777 6y ago
        Since Hacker News readers tend to be (but are certainly not exclusively) living in Western countries, I think it's reasonable to assume from context that the original poster was likely referring to the yoga that's common in the West.
      - amadsen 6y ago
        It's true though: "common modern Yoga poses", as popularly practiced in the west and in India, are derived as much from Western gymnastics as they are from classical Hatha yoga, as the GP said. I don't think that that in any way denies the diversity of yoga, or its ancient roots. It's simply a fact that traditionally, asanas were only of marginal importance and they were almost exclusively seated poses intended for meditation. There is no downward dog in the medieval texts, no Surya Namasakar, no vinyasas... Postural yoga was popularized in India in the 1930s. Hatha yoga had been out of fashion for centuries at that point. Famous teachers like Swami Kuvalayananda, Yogendra and Krishnamacharya revived it and incorporated the standing poses from contemporary gymnastics and, for the first time, movements. For some, maintaining a connection to the Hatha roots were more important than others. Pattabhi Jois claimed that his Ashtanga yoga (the origin of modern Mysore style in India and Power yoga in the West) was based a 5000 year old sanskrit text that Krishnamacharya had discovered, but unfortunately it was "eaten by ants". Cultures change over time and the Silk Road is a two-way street. We all learn from each other and that is, for the most part, a good thing.
divs1210 6y ago
It's a shame that none of the citations in the article are from any Indian source, from any of the various yogic lineages or masters. I feel it's pretty racist, like blackface.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- unmole 6y ago
  ayaṃ nijaḥ paro veti gaṇanā laghucetasām। udāracaritānāṃ tu vasudhaiva kuṭumbakam॥ Translation: One is kin, the other a stranger say the small minded. The wise know that the world is but a family.
  - seesawtron 6y ago
    We are all manifestations of the same ONE cosmic vibration.
  - drieddust 6y ago
    Concept of vasudhaiva kuṭumbakam is misunderstood even by Indian. Of course in Indian philosophy world is considered one large family. However, this is directly in contrast with Clash of civilization. They cannot work together. Indian sages were smart enough to also warn of its misuse. Here is a 3 part detailed explanations of the concept and how its meaning is lost. [0] [1] [2] [0] https://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-1-hitopadesha/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva... [1] https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/12/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-2/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/12/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva... [2] https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/26/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-3/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/26/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva...
  - divs1210 6y ago
    Have fun getting a brain tumor removed by an electrician.
fromaj 6y ago
A bit unrelated but important thing to note is that yoga isn't just exercise poses, it is a framework for a specific way of life. Asana is the part of that framework that deals with different postures that can build a healthy physical body while other parts of the teachings get into self-care, breathing, social interactions and self-reflection.
- jariel 6y ago
  It's more spiritually oriented than 'posture' and other pedantic things although arguably that helps. From the article: "a way the sacred can come into life”. Basically a way to strengthen the resonance of the chakras and effectively 'raise the Kundalini fire' i.e. to help you achieve a specific kind of enlightenment. Or at least in their view. [1] This is effectively the point of 'Yoga' in it's greater sense, it's just rarely communicated in those terms. The degree to which people practice Yoga and don't realize that it's an intensely religious exercise, mostly designed to bring them to (supposed) 'enlightenment' is a little baffling. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini
  - nprateem 6y ago
    People downvoting this are sadly demonstrating their ignorance
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      What they are demonstrating is that this is a generic non-statement. It's like saying martial arts and lifting build discipline. Sure, and so do a 1000 other things, including Yoga. It's a vague non-statement. All of these interpretations border on the occult. At the end of the day, yoga is like meditation - it needs to be clearly defined. Decoupled from all the mysticism, it's just a bunch of exercises. India definitely had some cool fitness systems, but they are mostly lost, like their martial arts. Until there is a clear "do y, get x", this is all overly-obfuscated to build mystique. I.e. "lift weights 3x8 3x a week, be able to lift 1-5% more weights in 2 weeks". Very clear, very defined. None of that here with yoga.
ivanhoe 6y ago
"creating a system to train the body in preparation for anti-colonial resistance." It was actually completely the opposite, the modern yoga practices were actually inspired by colonial rulers as it was time when in Europe it has become very popular and fashionable to exercise. Maharaja Krisharaja Wadiyar IV has hired Tirumalai Krishnamacharya (who btw died in 1989, just 32 years ago) to come up with somethign similar to Swedish gymnastics and Sokol movements in Slavic countries, just based on Indian traditions. It had nothing to do with colonial resistance, it was just a fashionable thing coming from the West, like later jeans or McDonalds or Starbucks (or cross-fit training for that matter)...
- hzay 6y ago
  Hey thanks for your comment. Just wanted to add -- if someone wants to learn more, "Yoga Body" and "Roots of Yoga" by Mark Singleton contain this information. I wish this was more well-known in indian yoga circles.
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Does it not make you a little bit suspicious? What data would you seek out to falsify it? Did you factor in cultural narratives of western superiority into your thought process?
    - reason-mr 6y ago
      Singleton agrees that yoga poses as described in the material referenced by the OP here were existent far back, and that traditionally, yoga was considered far "more" than just physical poses (asana), as is evidenced by patajali, numerous historical references, the 8 limbs of yoga, etc. What he supposes, more controversially, is that more recent forms of physical asana, such those based as mysore style ashtanga yoga, were not evidenced in the original material he consulted and were subsequently added, though of course it must be said that much of this material was at least gathered, if not authored, though a colonial lens. (It must also be said that the traditional Indian method of writing on what are basically dried leaves has not done history any favors here) Therefore he assumes that those particular physical asanas (things like sun salutations, vigorous vinyasa practice, etc) were not in existence prior to the injection of more western forms such as calisthenics. He has no issue with the older material. Whether or not you believe his other main assertion is I think based on your experience with yoga, cultural appropriation, time spent in India, and related other matters. The irony of course is that, if you believe him, is that the "feel good do no good" part of yoga was added from western material and then re-exported back to west, where it because the predominant form almost to the exclusion of the others. Certainly from my experience of being in India and practicing various forms of yoga here and here, I can say that there are many forms of yoga existent in India which largely do not equate to the westernized versions primarily practiced in yoga studios here.
sundarurfriend 6y ago
I'm curious about the extra person in a lot of these images. In some, they're clearly disciples of the Yoga guru and paying obeisance, but in some others it looks like they're holding a spade[1] or (what looks like) washing clothes[2][3] or stoking a fire[4]. It could be just to add some variety and background to the image, but I wonder if there's more to it, perhaps something related to the Yoga asanas that are being depicted in each one. [1] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f015.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [2] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f011.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [3] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f078.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [4] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f059.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha...
- inatreecrown2 6y ago
  washing clothes and stoking a fire are perfectly fine things to do for disciples
- Vrondi 6y ago
  I Think [2]may be someone grinding a food substance on a flat mortar and pestle style implement. Such things are still used in India and other parts of the world, and even Yogis still need to eat sometimes.
truth_ 6y ago
"Yoga" is also the Bengali word for addition in Math. Somebody explained "Yoga" to me once as the addition of self (jibatma) to the universe (paramatma). So this process requires many components. And according to some these components are independent of one another. One famous yogi talked about 4 yogas- 1. Knowledge yoga 2. Work yoga 3. Devotion yoga 4. Raja yoga (the king yoga- famed and stories such as stopping breathing, leaving body without dying are rampant) These yogas requires energy and healthy body and mind. So enters Hatha Yoga. I regularly practice Pranayama taught to me by my father. Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism assumes that you can be one with the universe without believing in any god. That is much discussed in Bhagabad Gita. Buddha was an athiest. There has always been a strong sect of athiests in India- for thousands years.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  For me the interesting thing is how the word 'yoga' was translated into Tibetan when the first yogis arrived to Tibet in the 8th century. Their term of choice wasn't the traditional 'union' (which is zung 'jug in Tibetan) but rnal 'byor. This word is composed of two terms: rnal means 'natural state', whereas 'byor' means to 'reach' or simply 'remain' in it. They did the same with many other terms like "Buddha", translating it according it according to the meaning, not literally. (That was during the first wave of translations. In the second wave the translators were much more literary, although they praised the pioneers as superior.)
- sg47 6y ago
  Are there pranayama videos on youtube that you'd recommend?
ffrank_t 6y ago
Any suggestions/thoughts on learning yoga practices beyond physical exercises/fitness? I've been going in and out of the subject for the last 10 years or so. Modern yoga practices in my country essentially boil down to either stripped down physical training, or something intentionally very esoteric and built around 'energies' etc. What I ideally would want to is to discern the actual practices from cultural background. I don't mind learning cultural background as well, but I have a hard time taking certain things for granted. Maybe there is some modern movements/sources that explain scriptures to a modern man, with focus on practice? What I usually find is way too scientific in the sense of Orientology/Philosophy but not the actual practice
- csbartus 6y ago
  I do pranayama (breathing techniques). And two yoga poses (mountain, corpse). That's what is left from 3 years intensive training. In other words I do what I like, when I like, how I like. If you want something methodical try Pilates. It's yoga without the cult.
  - ffrank_t 6y ago
    Ideally I would want things like samadhi, kayvalya and numerous other things explained in layman terms and ideally with some modern instructions. I do not want a stripped version of yoga that only involves physical exercises. There is also this thing that some scriptures mention things that others don't and sometimes even present conflicting theories throughout the same scripture. Like hatha-yoga prardipika mentions two ways of achieving immortality: one through raising kundalini and another through saving bindu. Alternatively I'm looking for some guide on what are the main ideas, different schools and techniques developed in yoga, how they relate to each other, what are main concepts and how they evolve in different schools. tldr: I have a sense that there is something valuable for me, but I want to extract it with minimal costs, i.e. not getting a degree in philosophy or orientology in the process.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      > have a sense that there is something valuable for me, but I want to extract it with minimal cost My gut feeling is that this won't really work. A lot of these things need to be felt and experienced, not just learnt. There's a metaphore that no matter how much one reads about mangoes and the descriptions of their taste, you can't really know what one tastes like until you eat it. Similarly the experience of yoga or any other somewhat metaphysical thing cannot be fully conveyed textually and intellectually. On one hand this bothers me as an engineer and a logical person. But on the other hand, when hiring someone we care about years of experience not just book knowledge. This is because the experience, including weird and failure like experience is part of how a person gets "there" in their growth. I think yoga and religion is much the same, you can't truly get it until you've struggled with the intangible and illusive elements of it and attained some of the feelings. Personal background: I was every lucky to get involved with some hardcore hatha teachers and ended up doing hatha teacher training a few years ago. The course was as much about the history and philosophy and the experience of yoga as it was about praneyama and asana. Since that time, I became more connected to Judaism (I think yoga opened me up emotionally for that) and drifted further away from yoga as I think they are incompatible in some ways so I am not a great authority. But I do think "not taking the easy way" is pretty central to the whole thing.
harimau777 6y ago
It's interesting to me that all of these appear to be seated postures with the exception of one where they appear to be hanging upside down from a tree.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  And the one floating in the air of course.
  - sysadmindotfail 6y ago
    That's the 'Dhalsim' pose
  - inatreecrown2 6y ago
    he is sitting on top of the wood
- inatreecrown2 6y ago
  he is just relaxing on the grass, looking up
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
No "Downward Dog" in the whole bunch...
83457 6y ago
A tangent but I thought others would find this interesting... The image at the top is related to Kundalini per the caption. This form of yoga seems to be synonymous in my area of the US (DC) and probably others with a group termed "white sikhs". They originate from a 60/70s group started by an Indian guru. Sikhism traditionally does not involve yoga but the guru that started the US Sikh group had a background in it so yoga was an integral part of his teachings. The group became ~~somewhat of~~ a cult and guru investigated for abusive practices, but they now seem to just be devout Sikhs with slightly different traditions and organization than Indian counterparts. They seem to be shunned by some Punjabis as not "real" Sikhs while other Punjabis have joined them. I am caucasian with a non-practicing Indian Sikh wife and did a project on Sikhism when I went back to school years ago, which is where I learned about them. Not long after, a temple we visited with my wife's family turned out to be one started by white sikhs, with Kundalini yoga studio underneath. It was very interesting seeing caucasians in full Sikh garb and small sword, including women which is not common with Punjabi Sikhs. I saw an older caucasion lady with sikh turban some years later leaving my office building and I said "sat siri akal" which surprised her, then she returned the greeting with a huge smile. I find their story fascinating and I hope I haven't offended anyone here that is part of this group. For some reason I can't find the pages and videos I used for research a decade ago. Here are some that I found though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQhHjf8pTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQhHjf8pTs https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/yogi-bhajan/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/yogi-bhajan/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-disturbing-mainstream_b_667026 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-disturbing-mainstream_b_6... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3HO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3HO
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  My understanding (speaking as someone with Muslim Punjabi background from Kapurthala and Qadian) is those guys got involved with security contracts with INS/ICE in recent years. I met an adult child of people in that group in New Orleans a few years back.
  - 83457 6y ago
    Yeah. I've heard they have been big in security for a long time. I think one of the issues with the group at least early on was their starting of businesses, in particular in security, where they were not paying followers for their work. I'm not super knowledgeable about them, so it's entirely possible there are still some sketchy practices by parts of the group that I thought had ended. I have added a huffpost article that states "Akal Security, the largest judicial security contractor in the United States, has been awarded at least $3.5 billion in Federal contracts since the year 2000, and its clients include the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice, and the Department of Defense. "
inatreecrown2 6y ago
what I find most interesting is that you can look at the images and for one can see the master floating, hanging upside down, flying. or you can adjust your perspective and see the master in perfectly "normal" positions. So for example he can be in the same image hanging upside down from a tree and lying in the grass under that tree looking up.
ncmncm 6y ago
The usual story I have encountered is that Yoga as taught today was invented from whole cloth in the 1920s. Seeing similar claims about the 1800s does not just raise a question whether the 1920s or 1800s story is better. It puts the whole notion of Western invention in doubt -- right along with pre-Buddhist, Buddhist, and post-Buddhist stories. At this point, I don't know the history of Yoga, and don't believe people who say they know.
jangid 6y ago
Instead of `hathyog pradeepika', I find `patanjali yog darshan' more enlightening. According to Patanlaji, there is more to Yoga than just physical health. He divides the book into various parts. But the main, which the general public relate to, is `saadhana pad'. It starts with /Atha yoganushasanam/ == अथ योगानुशासनम == let us start yoga with discipline. This is the first /sootra/ (verse). And every verse builds on the previous. And in the 2nd verse he defines what is yoga. /Yogashchittavruttinirodhah/ == योगःचित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः == ... Literal meaning of Yoga is add, sum, to be one with. For believers, it could be - "to be one with God", for spiritual, meditating people - "to be one with supreme consciousness". And as Vivekananda explains to non-believers, you can think of atman as a form of energy... it can never be created nor destroyed... so just oscillate between energy and partical form... and yoga means to be one with the source (energy). As par India system of yogic tradition, that is the goal of every human being and Patanjali tells us how to achieve that. /Yogashchittavruttinirodhah/ "Yoga means suppressing (/nirodhah/) the fluctuations (/vrutti/) of mind (/chitta/)." Well, I am using close meanings. Patanjali divides our mind into various logical parts. I find this really fascinating. Must read. But the best book that I have found is in Sanskrit and Hindi.
- jaiprabhu 6y ago
  Would you have a recommendation for a good English language translation for Yog Darshan by Patanjali?
  - rramadass 6y ago
    There are lots of english translations of "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali#Translations_and_commentaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali#Trans...) To see how succinct they are, read Bon Giovanni's translation at https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm If you are new to the subject start with Swami Vivekananda's Raja Yoga which is a very loose but accessible overview. For a detailed study with notes from various commentaries, see The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali trans. by Edwin Bryant. The above two should give you a solid foundation after which you can move on to even more exhaustive translations with specific commentaries.
rramadass 6y ago
This work Joga Pradipika by Jayatarama(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joga_Prad%C4%ABpik%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joga_Prad%C4%ABpik%C4%81) is different from the well known Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Svatmarama(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_Yoga_Pradipika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_Yoga_Pradipika) Modern day "Hatha Yoga" traces its origin to the "Natha Yogis"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nath). It is also quite interesting to note that "Patanjali Ashtanga Yoga" had nothing to do with the above. Due to historical reasons, a subset of the Asanas (with his own modifications) were popularized by T. Krishnamacharya who also used the text "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" as a larger framework within which to seat his practice. This was then exported to the West by his students which has now come to be known as the de-facto Yoga.
amriksohata 6y ago
When I try to explain to my friends in the West of the different types of Yoga they are like huh? They have only heard of the physical Yoga that has been commercialised. But I say to them if you believe in that, then its worth understanding the other types of Yoga described in the Bhagavad Gita

117 points by Thevet 6y ago

cies 6y ago

I learned somewhere that common modern Yoga poses have been influenced a lot by Swedish gymnastics. https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2012/oct/03/straight-yoga-swedish/ https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2012/oct/03/straight-yog... https://jfdeters.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/the-myth-of-yoga/ https://jfdeters.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/the-myth-of-yoga/ https://theconversation.com/from-india-with-love-how-yoga-got-its-stretch-back-79593 https://theconversation.com/from-india-with-love-how-yoga-go...

FlyingSnake 6y ago
This is either willfully ignorant statement or simply malicious thought to discredit Yoga from it's ancient roots. A blog post of cherry-picked, unsourced comments doesn't prove that modern Yoga poses are Swedish. Yoga is a ancient system and like many systems in the orient, it is quite malleable and has been modernized with time. There are many aspects of Yoga and merely reducing it to "certain body poses" and claiming it's Swedish, is cultural appropriation at it's finest.
- limbicsystem 6y ago
  I'm not sure I detect either ignorance or 'malicious thought' in the parent post. It is clearly true that much of modern Yoga practise in the west >is< influenced by other cultures (the Swedish / British keep fit programmes of the 1920s for example). It can also be true that Yoga has deep cultural roots that extend far into the distant past. The parent does not 'reduce' Yoga to certain body poses - you are both effectively agreeing with each other that it is a malleable system that has modernised (significantly) over the past 100 years or so. I would love to know what a C19th Hatha Yoga practitioner from those illustrations would make of the explosion of different styles that have evolved today. I would hope that they and, say, Tim Senesei or Adrianne Mishler might be able to have an interesting (and respectful) conversation.
  - cies 6y ago
    Exactly. I was not discrediting, I just saw the poses in the images and thought "interesting how little of these i know from modern yoga". Then I remembered the recent evolution story of yoga.
  - sundarurfriend 6y ago
    > much of modern Yoga practise in the west That's a shift in goalposts from the original post's claim of "common modern Yoga poses" - Yoga practise in the west is only a small portion of modern Yoga in general. There's a difference between saying "common modern English borrows a lot from Hindi grammar" and "modern English spoken in India borrows a lot from Hindi grammar" - and there's as much difference between your statement and the statement the original comment made.
    - harimau777 6y ago
      Since Hacker News readers tend to be (but are certainly not exclusively) living in Western countries, I think it's reasonable to assume from context that the original poster was likely referring to the yoga that's common in the West.
    - amadsen 6y ago
      It's true though: "common modern Yoga poses", as popularly practiced in the west and in India, are derived as much from Western gymnastics as they are from classical Hatha yoga, as the GP said. I don't think that that in any way denies the diversity of yoga, or its ancient roots. It's simply a fact that traditionally, asanas were only of marginal importance and they were almost exclusively seated poses intended for meditation. There is no downward dog in the medieval texts, no Surya Namasakar, no vinyasas... Postural yoga was popularized in India in the 1930s. Hatha yoga had been out of fashion for centuries at that point. Famous teachers like Swami Kuvalayananda, Yogendra and Krishnamacharya revived it and incorporated the standing poses from contemporary gymnastics and, for the first time, movements. For some, maintaining a connection to the Hatha roots were more important than others. Pattabhi Jois claimed that his Ashtanga yoga (the origin of modern Mysore style in India and Power yoga in the West) was based a 5000 year old sanskrit text that Krishnamacharya had discovered, but unfortunately it was "eaten by ants". Cultures change over time and the Silk Road is a two-way street. We all learn from each other and that is, for the most part, a good thing.

divs1210 6y ago

It's a shame that none of the citations in the article are from any Indian source, from any of the various yogic lineages or masters. I feel it's pretty racist, like blackface.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
unmole 6y ago
ayaṃ nijaḥ paro veti gaṇanā laghucetasām। udāracaritānāṃ tu vasudhaiva kuṭumbakam॥ Translation: One is kin, the other a stranger say the small minded. The wise know that the world is but a family.
- seesawtron 6y ago
  We are all manifestations of the same ONE cosmic vibration.
- drieddust 6y ago
  Concept of vasudhaiva kuṭumbakam is misunderstood even by Indian. Of course in Indian philosophy world is considered one large family. However, this is directly in contrast with Clash of civilization. They cannot work together. Indian sages were smart enough to also warn of its misuse. Here is a 3 part detailed explanations of the concept and how its meaning is lost. [0] [1] [2] [0] https://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-1-hitopadesha/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/08/29/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva... [1] https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/12/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-2/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/12/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva... [2] https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/26/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva-kutumbakam-3/ https://bharatendu.com/2008/09/26/the-hoax-called-vasudhaiva...
- divs1210 6y ago
  Have fun getting a brain tumor removed by an electrician.

fromaj 6y ago

A bit unrelated but important thing to note is that yoga isn't just exercise poses, it is a framework for a specific way of life. Asana is the part of that framework that deals with different postures that can build a healthy physical body while other parts of the teachings get into self-care, breathing, social interactions and self-reflection.

jariel 6y ago
It's more spiritually oriented than 'posture' and other pedantic things although arguably that helps. From the article: "a way the sacred can come into life”. Basically a way to strengthen the resonance of the chakras and effectively 'raise the Kundalini fire' i.e. to help you achieve a specific kind of enlightenment. Or at least in their view. [1] This is effectively the point of 'Yoga' in it's greater sense, it's just rarely communicated in those terms. The degree to which people practice Yoga and don't realize that it's an intensely religious exercise, mostly designed to bring them to (supposed) 'enlightenment' is a little baffling. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini
- nprateem 6y ago
  People downvoting this are sadly demonstrating their ignorance
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    What they are demonstrating is that this is a generic non-statement. It's like saying martial arts and lifting build discipline. Sure, and so do a 1000 other things, including Yoga. It's a vague non-statement. All of these interpretations border on the occult. At the end of the day, yoga is like meditation - it needs to be clearly defined. Decoupled from all the mysticism, it's just a bunch of exercises. India definitely had some cool fitness systems, but they are mostly lost, like their martial arts. Until there is a clear "do y, get x", this is all overly-obfuscated to build mystique. I.e. "lift weights 3x8 3x a week, be able to lift 1-5% more weights in 2 weeks". Very clear, very defined. None of that here with yoga.

ivanhoe 6y ago

"creating a system to train the body in preparation for anti-colonial resistance." It was actually completely the opposite, the modern yoga practices were actually inspired by colonial rulers as it was time when in Europe it has become very popular and fashionable to exercise. Maharaja Krisharaja Wadiyar IV has hired Tirumalai Krishnamacharya (who btw died in 1989, just 32 years ago) to come up with somethign similar to Swedish gymnastics and Sokol movements in Slavic countries, just based on Indian traditions. It had nothing to do with colonial resistance, it was just a fashionable thing coming from the West, like later jeans or McDonalds or Starbucks (or cross-fit training for that matter)...

hzay 6y ago
Hey thanks for your comment. Just wanted to add -- if someone wants to learn more, "Yoga Body" and "Roots of Yoga" by Mark Singleton contain this information. I wish this was more well-known in indian yoga circles.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  This is a western academic interpretation of yoga which is favorable to the idea that all good things, even from the ancient eastern traditions, have western inspirations. Does it not make you a little bit suspicious? What data would you seek out to falsify it? Did you factor in cultural narratives of western superiority into your thought process?
  - reason-mr 6y ago
    Singleton agrees that yoga poses as described in the material referenced by the OP here were existent far back, and that traditionally, yoga was considered far "more" than just physical poses (asana), as is evidenced by patajali, numerous historical references, the 8 limbs of yoga, etc. What he supposes, more controversially, is that more recent forms of physical asana, such those based as mysore style ashtanga yoga, were not evidenced in the original material he consulted and were subsequently added, though of course it must be said that much of this material was at least gathered, if not authored, though a colonial lens. (It must also be said that the traditional Indian method of writing on what are basically dried leaves has not done history any favors here) Therefore he assumes that those particular physical asanas (things like sun salutations, vigorous vinyasa practice, etc) were not in existence prior to the injection of more western forms such as calisthenics. He has no issue with the older material. Whether or not you believe his other main assertion is I think based on your experience with yoga, cultural appropriation, time spent in India, and related other matters. The irony of course is that, if you believe him, is that the "feel good do no good" part of yoga was added from western material and then re-exported back to west, where it because the predominant form almost to the exclusion of the others. Certainly from my experience of being in India and practicing various forms of yoga here and here, I can say that there are many forms of yoga existent in India which largely do not equate to the westernized versions primarily practiced in yoga studios here.

sundarurfriend 6y ago

I'm curious about the extra person in a lot of these images. In some, they're clearly disciples of the Yoga guru and paying obeisance, but in some others it looks like they're holding a spade[1] or (what looks like) washing clothes[2][3] or stoking a fire[4]. It could be just to add some variety and background to the image, but I wonder if there's more to it, perhaps something related to the Yoga asanas that are being depicted in each one. [1] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f015.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [2] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f011.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [3] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f078.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha... [4] https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha-yoga-images-from-the-joga-pradipika/yoga-poses-f059.jpg?w=600 https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/collections/hatha...

inatreecrown2 6y ago
washing clothes and stoking a fire are perfectly fine things to do for disciples
Vrondi 6y ago
I Think [2]may be someone grinding a food substance on a flat mortar and pestle style implement. Such things are still used in India and other parts of the world, and even Yogis still need to eat sometimes.

truth_ 6y ago

"Yoga" is also the Bengali word for addition in Math. Somebody explained "Yoga" to me once as the addition of self (jibatma) to the universe (paramatma). So this process requires many components. And according to some these components are independent of one another. One famous yogi talked about 4 yogas- 1. Knowledge yoga 2. Work yoga 3. Devotion yoga 4. Raja yoga (the king yoga- famed and stories such as stopping breathing, leaving body without dying are rampant) These yogas requires energy and healthy body and mind. So enters Hatha Yoga. I regularly practice Pranayama taught to me by my father. Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism assumes that you can be one with the universe without believing in any god. That is much discussed in Bhagabad Gita. Buddha was an athiest. There has always been a strong sect of athiests in India- for thousands years.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
For me the interesting thing is how the word 'yoga' was translated into Tibetan when the first yogis arrived to Tibet in the 8th century. Their term of choice wasn't the traditional 'union' (which is zung 'jug in Tibetan) but rnal 'byor. This word is composed of two terms: rnal means 'natural state', whereas 'byor' means to 'reach' or simply 'remain' in it. They did the same with many other terms like "Buddha", translating it according it according to the meaning, not literally. (That was during the first wave of translations. In the second wave the translators were much more literary, although they praised the pioneers as superior.)
sg47 6y ago
Are there pranayama videos on youtube that you'd recommend?

ffrank_t 6y ago

Any suggestions/thoughts on learning yoga practices beyond physical exercises/fitness? I've been going in and out of the subject for the last 10 years or so. Modern yoga practices in my country essentially boil down to either stripped down physical training, or something intentionally very esoteric and built around 'energies' etc. What I ideally would want to is to discern the actual practices from cultural background. I don't mind learning cultural background as well, but I have a hard time taking certain things for granted. Maybe there is some modern movements/sources that explain scriptures to a modern man, with focus on practice? What I usually find is way too scientific in the sense of Orientology/Philosophy but not the actual practice

csbartus 6y ago
I do pranayama (breathing techniques). And two yoga poses (mountain, corpse). That's what is left from 3 years intensive training. In other words I do what I like, when I like, how I like. If you want something methodical try Pilates. It's yoga without the cult.
- ffrank_t 6y ago
  Ideally I would want things like samadhi, kayvalya and numerous other things explained in layman terms and ideally with some modern instructions. I do not want a stripped version of yoga that only involves physical exercises. There is also this thing that some scriptures mention things that others don't and sometimes even present conflicting theories throughout the same scripture. Like hatha-yoga prardipika mentions two ways of achieving immortality: one through raising kundalini and another through saving bindu. Alternatively I'm looking for some guide on what are the main ideas, different schools and techniques developed in yoga, how they relate to each other, what are main concepts and how they evolve in different schools. tldr: I have a sense that there is something valuable for me, but I want to extract it with minimal costs, i.e. not getting a degree in philosophy or orientology in the process.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    > have a sense that there is something valuable for me, but I want to extract it with minimal cost My gut feeling is that this won't really work. A lot of these things need to be felt and experienced, not just learnt. There's a metaphore that no matter how much one reads about mangoes and the descriptions of their taste, you can't really know what one tastes like until you eat it. Similarly the experience of yoga or any other somewhat metaphysical thing cannot be fully conveyed textually and intellectually. On one hand this bothers me as an engineer and a logical person. But on the other hand, when hiring someone we care about years of experience not just book knowledge. This is because the experience, including weird and failure like experience is part of how a person gets "there" in their growth. I think yoga and religion is much the same, you can't truly get it until you've struggled with the intangible and illusive elements of it and attained some of the feelings. Personal background: I was every lucky to get involved with some hardcore hatha teachers and ended up doing hatha teacher training a few years ago. The course was as much about the history and philosophy and the experience of yoga as it was about praneyama and asana. Since that time, I became more connected to Judaism (I think yoga opened me up emotionally for that) and drifted further away from yoga as I think they are incompatible in some ways so I am not a great authority. But I do think "not taking the easy way" is pretty central to the whole thing.

harimau777 6y ago

It's interesting to me that all of these appear to be seated postures with the exception of one where they appear to be hanging upside down from a tree.

IgorPartola 6y ago
And the one floating in the air of course.
- sysadmindotfail 6y ago
  That's the 'Dhalsim' pose
- inatreecrown2 6y ago
  he is sitting on top of the wood
inatreecrown2 6y ago
he is just relaxing on the grass, looking up

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

No "Downward Dog" in the whole bunch...

83457 6y ago

A tangent but I thought others would find this interesting... The image at the top is related to Kundalini per the caption. This form of yoga seems to be synonymous in my area of the US (DC) and probably others with a group termed "white sikhs". They originate from a 60/70s group started by an Indian guru. Sikhism traditionally does not involve yoga but the guru that started the US Sikh group had a background in it so yoga was an integral part of his teachings. The group became ~~somewhat of~~ a cult and guru investigated for abusive practices, but they now seem to just be devout Sikhs with slightly different traditions and organization than Indian counterparts. They seem to be shunned by some Punjabis as not "real" Sikhs while other Punjabis have joined them. I am caucasian with a non-practicing Indian Sikh wife and did a project on Sikhism when I went back to school years ago, which is where I learned about them. Not long after, a temple we visited with my wife's family turned out to be one started by white sikhs, with Kundalini yoga studio underneath. It was very interesting seeing caucasians in full Sikh garb and small sword, including women which is not common with Punjabi Sikhs. I saw an older caucasion lady with sikh turban some years later leaving my office building and I said "sat siri akal" which surprised her, then she returned the greeting with a huge smile. I find their story fascinating and I hope I haven't offended anyone here that is part of this group. For some reason I can't find the pages and videos I used for research a decade ago. Here are some that I found though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQhHjf8pTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQhHjf8pTs https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/yogi-bhajan/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/yogi-bhajan/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-disturbing-mainstream_b_667026 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-disturbing-mainstream_b_6... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3HO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3HO

selimthegrim 6y ago
My understanding (speaking as someone with Muslim Punjabi background from Kapurthala and Qadian) is those guys got involved with security contracts with INS/ICE in recent years. I met an adult child of people in that group in New Orleans a few years back.
- 83457 6y ago
  Yeah. I've heard they have been big in security for a long time. I think one of the issues with the group at least early on was their starting of businesses, in particular in security, where they were not paying followers for their work. I'm not super knowledgeable about them, so it's entirely possible there are still some sketchy practices by parts of the group that I thought had ended. I have added a huffpost article that states "Akal Security, the largest judicial security contractor in the United States, has been awarded at least $3.5 billion in Federal contracts since the year 2000, and its clients include the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice, and the Department of Defense. "

inatreecrown2 6y ago

what I find most interesting is that you can look at the images and for one can see the master floating, hanging upside down, flying. or you can adjust your perspective and see the master in perfectly "normal" positions. So for example he can be in the same image hanging upside down from a tree and lying in the grass under that tree looking up.

ncmncm 6y ago

The usual story I have encountered is that Yoga as taught today was invented from whole cloth in the 1920s. Seeing similar claims about the 1800s does not just raise a question whether the 1920s or 1800s story is better. It puts the whole notion of Western invention in doubt -- right along with pre-Buddhist, Buddhist, and post-Buddhist stories. At this point, I don't know the history of Yoga, and don't believe people who say they know.

jangid 6y ago

Instead of `hathyog pradeepika', I find `patanjali yog darshan' more enlightening. According to Patanlaji, there is more to Yoga than just physical health. He divides the book into various parts. But the main, which the general public relate to, is `saadhana pad'. It starts with /Atha yoganushasanam/ == अथ योगानुशासनम == let us start yoga with discipline. This is the first /sootra/ (verse). And every verse builds on the previous. And in the 2nd verse he defines what is yoga. /Yogashchittavruttinirodhah/ == योगःचित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः == ... Literal meaning of Yoga is add, sum, to be one with. For believers, it could be - "to be one with God", for spiritual, meditating people - "to be one with supreme consciousness". And as Vivekananda explains to non-believers, you can think of atman as a form of energy... it can never be created nor destroyed... so just oscillate between energy and partical form... and yoga means to be one with the source (energy). As par India system of yogic tradition, that is the goal of every human being and Patanjali tells us how to achieve that. /Yogashchittavruttinirodhah/ "Yoga means suppressing (/nirodhah/) the fluctuations (/vrutti/) of mind (/chitta/)." Well, I am using close meanings. Patanjali divides our mind into various logical parts. I find this really fascinating. Must read. But the best book that I have found is in Sanskrit and Hindi.

jaiprabhu 6y ago
Would you have a recommendation for a good English language translation for Yog Darshan by Patanjali?
- rramadass 6y ago
  There are lots of english translations of "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali#Translations_and_commentaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali#Trans...) To see how succinct they are, read Bon Giovanni's translation at https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm If you are new to the subject start with Swami Vivekananda's Raja Yoga which is a very loose but accessible overview. For a detailed study with notes from various commentaries, see The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali trans. by Edwin Bryant. The above two should give you a solid foundation after which you can move on to even more exhaustive translations with specific commentaries.

rramadass 6y ago

This work Joga Pradipika by Jayatarama(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joga_Prad%C4%ABpik%C4%81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joga_Prad%C4%ABpik%C4%81) is different from the well known Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Svatmarama(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_Yoga_Pradipika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_Yoga_Pradipika) Modern day "Hatha Yoga" traces its origin to the "Natha Yogis"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nath). It is also quite interesting to note that "Patanjali Ashtanga Yoga" had nothing to do with the above. Due to historical reasons, a subset of the Asanas (with his own modifications) were popularized by T. Krishnamacharya who also used the text "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" as a larger framework within which to seat his practice. This was then exported to the West by his students which has now come to be known as the de-facto Yoga.

amriksohata 6y ago

When I try to explain to my friends in the West of the different types of Yoga they are like huh? They have only heard of the physical Yoga that has been commercialised. But I say to them if you believe in that, then its worth understanding the other types of Yoga described in the Bhagavad Gita