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They've already been delisted by exchanges in Australia, although voluntarily, not by law. IMO The whole world has gone mad with the need for surveillance of e

They've already been delisted by exchanges in Australia, although voluntarily, not by law. IMO The whole world has gone mad with the need for surveillance of everything.

sillysaurusx 6y ago
delisting doesn't really change anything. The real threat would be if exchanges started blocking accounts that received BTC deposits from known monero-BTC exchange accounts. Luckily, they can't really do that, since people would be able to poison an arbitrary BTC wallet just by sending them a quantity of BTC laundered via monero. But it'd be a pretty expensive poison pill.
- ancientworldnow 6y ago
  The monero atomic swap feature means you can go from BTC to XMR without ever even touching an exchange or one of their wallets.
  - sillysaurusx 6y ago
    BTC to XMR, sure. But XMR to BTC is the value proposition -- if you've made a fortune doing something illegal, you'll want to have access to the BTC market somehow. Right now, you can probably do that without being sent to prison. It's a matter of using one of the many conversion websites to go from XMR to BTC, then depositing to your exchange and selling it. (I don't know how you'd explain it on a tax form, but maybe you can think of something clever.) But if exchanges start actively cracking down on any account that deposits BTC in response to XMR transactions (i.e. the exchange maintains a known list of wallets used by those conversion websites), they can start putting accounts on hold if those accounts have received large quantities of BTC from any of those XMR-related BTC wallets.
    - varajelle 6y ago
      The atomic swap works both ways. Also with the lightning network you can mix and change different crypto currencies, and it can be really hard to trace the provenance of the coins. Not something an exchange can do automatically. > the exchange maintains a known list of wallets used by those conversion websites Remember that new wallet can be created for each transactions. So even if they'd try to do that, it wouldn't work.
      - sillysaurusx 6y ago
        You can certainly map clusters of BTC wallets. It doesn’t matter if you create a new wallet for that purpose, since those new wallets are contaminated by the transaction history. Basically, from the exchange’s view, they’d bucket the wallets into either “looks like mixing; hold the account” or “seems legit.” Most wallets aren’t used for any high volume transactions; most account holders at Coinbase have no need for that. So it’s certainly possible to map out the network and partition it into known good / known bad categories, and handle the middle ground manually. In other words, yes, XRP is very clever. That’s not the problem. The problem is, you’ll someday find it very hard to convert large quantities of XMR to USD without risking jail time.
        matheusmoreira 6y ago
        > So it’s certainly possible to map out the network and partition it into known good / known bad categories You can't do this sort of analysis on the XMR blockchain. Can't see who's actually sending or receiving money. Can't see the transaction amounts. Can't see how much money any given wallet contains. Can't taint coins by association with criminal activities. Without exchange metadata it's impossible to correlate transactions with any certainty. There's essentially nothing that can be done about it. Will governments become oppressive enough to jail people for the crime of using a medium of exchange they can't control? I'm not even sure that'd be enough to stop it.
        sillysaurusx 6y ago
        Ya'll aren't thinking this through. Suppose I want to map an XMR->BTC converter. I sign up for the converter, and say "Here's some XMR. Give me BTC." At that point, some BTC wallet gives me BTC. I now know which wallet is being used by the XMR converter. And I know all the other metadata as a result.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      That is the real problem with BTC, that the tokens are non fungible. When I accept these 'tainted' BTC tokens, they might get blocked by others parties. So even here, XMR has a real benefit since those tokens are really fungible. The question will indeed be if it can live together with the economy, or beside it.
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      The ideal scenario is everyone using monero for everything. Why send money to an exchange at all when we can send monero to each other directly? There should be no need to swap monero for other forms of money. This is the original cryptocurrency dream. Monero is the only coin that has a shot at actually achieving this.
- Black101 6y ago
  > But it'd be a pretty expensive poison pill. 1 Satoshi is only $0.0006 USD plus the transfer fees... which is pretty low on the lightning network
da_big_ghey 6y ago
You have exact corect purposes here: no governemint ought to be having surveilance on financial transaction. They are even atempt to removeing cash for to grow surveilance. This is horible and we must have stopping it.
bruce343434 6y ago
australia is such a cuckolded nation when it comes to privacy and technology

They've already been delisted by exchanges in Australia, although voluntarily, not by law. IMO The whole world has gone mad with the need for surveillance of everything.

sillysaurusx 6y ago

delisting doesn't really change anything. The real threat would be if exchanges started blocking accounts that received BTC deposits from known monero-BTC exchange accounts. Luckily, they can't really do that, since people would be able to poison an arbitrary BTC wallet just by sending them a quantity of BTC laundered via monero. But it'd be a pretty expensive poison pill.

ancientworldnow 6y ago
The monero atomic swap feature means you can go from BTC to XMR without ever even touching an exchange or one of their wallets.
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  BTC to XMR, sure. But XMR to BTC is the value proposition -- if you've made a fortune doing something illegal, you'll want to have access to the BTC market somehow. Right now, you can probably do that without being sent to prison. It's a matter of using one of the many conversion websites to go from XMR to BTC, then depositing to your exchange and selling it. (I don't know how you'd explain it on a tax form, but maybe you can think of something clever.) But if exchanges start actively cracking down on any account that deposits BTC in response to XMR transactions (i.e. the exchange maintains a known list of wallets used by those conversion websites), they can start putting accounts on hold if those accounts have received large quantities of BTC from any of those XMR-related BTC wallets.
  - varajelle 6y ago
    The atomic swap works both ways. Also with the lightning network you can mix and change different crypto currencies, and it can be really hard to trace the provenance of the coins. Not something an exchange can do automatically. > the exchange maintains a known list of wallets used by those conversion websites Remember that new wallet can be created for each transactions. So even if they'd try to do that, it wouldn't work.
    - sillysaurusx 6y ago
      You can certainly map clusters of BTC wallets. It doesn’t matter if you create a new wallet for that purpose, since those new wallets are contaminated by the transaction history. Basically, from the exchange’s view, they’d bucket the wallets into either “looks like mixing; hold the account” or “seems legit.” Most wallets aren’t used for any high volume transactions; most account holders at Coinbase have no need for that. So it’s certainly possible to map out the network and partition it into known good / known bad categories, and handle the middle ground manually. In other words, yes, XRP is very clever. That’s not the problem. The problem is, you’ll someday find it very hard to convert large quantities of XMR to USD without risking jail time.
      - matheusmoreira 6y ago
        > So it’s certainly possible to map out the network and partition it into known good / known bad categories You can't do this sort of analysis on the XMR blockchain. Can't see who's actually sending or receiving money. Can't see the transaction amounts. Can't see how much money any given wallet contains. Can't taint coins by association with criminal activities. Without exchange metadata it's impossible to correlate transactions with any certainty. There's essentially nothing that can be done about it. Will governments become oppressive enough to jail people for the crime of using a medium of exchange they can't control? I'm not even sure that'd be enough to stop it.
        sillysaurusx 6y ago
        Ya'll aren't thinking this through. Suppose I want to map an XMR->BTC converter. I sign up for the converter, and say "Here's some XMR. Give me BTC." At that point, some BTC wallet gives me BTC. I now know which wallet is being used by the XMR converter. And I know all the other metadata as a result.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    That is the real problem with BTC, that the tokens are non fungible. When I accept these 'tainted' BTC tokens, they might get blocked by others parties. So even here, XMR has a real benefit since those tokens are really fungible. The question will indeed be if it can live together with the economy, or beside it.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    The ideal scenario is everyone using monero for everything. Why send money to an exchange at all when we can send monero to each other directly? There should be no need to swap monero for other forms of money. This is the original cryptocurrency dream. Monero is the only coin that has a shot at actually achieving this.
Black101 6y ago
> But it'd be a pretty expensive poison pill. 1 Satoshi is only $0.0006 USD plus the transfer fees... which is pretty low on the lightning network

da_big_ghey 6y ago

You have exact corect purposes here: no governemint ought to be having surveilance on financial transaction. They are even atempt to removeing cash for to grow surveilance. This is horible and we must have stopping it.

bruce343434 6y ago

australia is such a cuckolded nation when it comes to privacy and technology