6 ms·

If every call cost 5 cents to originate we would no longer have a spam problem.

PenguinCoder 6y ago
You're incorrect, and underestimating the potential profit vs cost. 5c per outbound call, but even if the scammers get 1 or two people a day for $100 (and likely MUCH more), it's just a drop in the bucket to operating costs.
- trident5000 6y ago
  I doubt I'm incorrect. There were 46 billion robocalls in 2020. That would be a $2.3 billion operating cost. Make it 10 cents and its 4.6 billion. Robocallers are not making 2-5 billion per year scamming people.
  - bogidon 6y ago
    I wonder what’s the ballpark of what spammers are making and spending. And if that really is significant enough profit to the carriers to prompt inaction on an issue that clearly degrades the experience for the rest of their users. Or maybe this issue couldn’t be solved unilaterally, where one carrier could offer much better spam protection as a competitive advantage, and the industry is too decrepit for group effort that doesn’t have direct implications on their bottom line.
  - PenguinCoder 6y ago
    Yeah they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26813194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26813194
- yboris 6y ago
  $100 / $0.05 = 2,000 Do you think the scammers have a better return than $100 / 2,000 calls made?
  - PenguinCoder 6y ago
    Uh, yes. https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/phone-scams-cost-americans-8-6-billion-last-year-here-s-how-to-protect-yourself-106523 https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/phone-scams-cost-american... https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/phone-scams-cost-americans-95-billion-per-year https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/phone-scams-cost-americ... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-phone-scams-cost-americans-last-year-2017-04-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-phone-scams...
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  I am in a country where outbound calls are not free yet. Our robocall problem is, in comparison to the U.S., negligible.
runako 6y ago
If a person averages 5 calls per day, that comes to $7/mo. That's an additional 20% above T-Mobile's cheapest plan. We would want to design a system that acts as a deterrent on spammers without acting as a communications tax on the poorest.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- KingMachiavelli 6y ago
  Is the average number of daily calls even 5? The poorest are probably not on the high end of that distribution in any case. It also doesn't need to be applied to regular mobile numbers - just VOIP numbers. At the call volumes these spammers use there is no way they are using diverted SIM/mobile numbers. Another solution is to make the call cost $0.05 or some nominal cost unless the call duration is longer than 20 seconds. Or make calls that are unanswered cost more, etc.
- trident5000 6y ago
  Make it per contact per month. Most people reoccur calls to the same few people. Theres a way to get creative to penalize spammers but keep it cheap for customers.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  Do people really make 5 calls a day? I'd be surprised if I make 5 calls a month.
  - maccard 6y ago
    Yes, definitely. My parents have "unlimited calls", and they regularly call people for a conversation that you would have via whatsapp/sms. They might even call the same person 5 times in the same day (and that person on another day might call them 5 times).
na85 6y ago
How could the telcos enforce this if they can't even stop spammers from spoofing numbers?
- kalleboo 6y ago
  Just charge higher termination rates?
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  We use algos to block spam. We can do the same for robo dialers.
  - na85 6y ago
    >We use algos to block spam. Assuming you mean "we" as in "we, the telcos": No offense but it's not working.
pjc50 6y ago
Hey, I remember when calls used to cost money! But then again I'm in the UK where the robocall problem is much smaller for some reason.
- consp 6y ago
  Not from my perspective: I keep receiving UK phone number spam calls, and I do not even live in the UK. So far I blocked all UK numbers using a blocker app. This is due to the some UK numbers being "reusable" as well and location bound. There are numbers from businesses who went bankrupt and are now being used as they sometimes show up as "named numbers".
ta_robocall 6y ago
another one. A calls B, A now owes 9999.. to B (via phone company, billing), if B calls A back at least once, we now know there is a link and every call between these two numbers goes as usual. two birds with one stone. punish robocallers, awards those affected by them.
curryst 6y ago
Doesn't the system to bill people's phone lines still exist? I presume telcos have made that immune to number spoofing since there's money on the line. Just make it so that reporting the call as spam triggers a $1 charge to the caller. Something that won't ruin anybody's life if their ex-spouse decides to be a shitty person, but enough that it makes spam calling no longer profitable.
cryptonector 6y ago
Or -hear me out- if every call was authenticated... then abusers could get locked out of the network, fined, etc.

You're incorrect, and underestimating the potential profit vs cost. 5c per outbound call, but even if the scammers get 1 or two people a day for $100 (and likely MUCH more), it's just a drop in the bucket to operating costs.

trident5000 6y ago
I doubt I'm incorrect. There were 46 billion robocalls in 2020. That would be a $2.3 billion operating cost. Make it 10 cents and its 4.6 billion. Robocallers are not making 2-5 billion per year scamming people.
- bogidon 6y ago
  I wonder what’s the ballpark of what spammers are making and spending. And if that really is significant enough profit to the carriers to prompt inaction on an issue that clearly degrades the experience for the rest of their users. Or maybe this issue couldn’t be solved unilaterally, where one carrier could offer much better spam protection as a competitive advantage, and the industry is too decrepit for group effort that doesn’t have direct implications on their bottom line.
- PenguinCoder 6y ago
  Yeah they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26813194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26813194
yboris 6y ago
$100 / $0.05 = 2,000 Do you think the scammers have a better return than $100 / 2,000 calls made?
- PenguinCoder 6y ago
  Uh, yes. https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/phone-scams-cost-americans-8-6-billion-last-year-here-s-how-to-protect-yourself-106523 https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/phone-scams-cost-american... https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/phone-scams-cost-americans-95-billion-per-year https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/phone-scams-cost-americ... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-phone-scams-cost-americans-last-year-2017-04-19 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-how-much-phone-scams...
inglor_cz 6y ago
I am in a country where outbound calls are not free yet. Our robocall problem is, in comparison to the U.S., negligible.

runako 6y ago

If a person averages 5 calls per day, that comes to $7/mo. That's an additional 20% above T-Mobile's cheapest plan. We would want to design a system that acts as a deterrent on spammers without acting as a communications tax on the poorest.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
KingMachiavelli 6y ago
Is the average number of daily calls even 5? The poorest are probably not on the high end of that distribution in any case. It also doesn't need to be applied to regular mobile numbers - just VOIP numbers. At the call volumes these spammers use there is no way they are using diverted SIM/mobile numbers. Another solution is to make the call cost $0.05 or some nominal cost unless the call duration is longer than 20 seconds. Or make calls that are unanswered cost more, etc.
trident5000 6y ago
Make it per contact per month. Most people reoccur calls to the same few people. Theres a way to get creative to penalize spammers but keep it cheap for customers.
ALittleLight 6y ago
Do people really make 5 calls a day? I'd be surprised if I make 5 calls a month.
- maccard 6y ago
  Yes, definitely. My parents have "unlimited calls", and they regularly call people for a conversation that you would have via whatsapp/sms. They might even call the same person 5 times in the same day (and that person on another day might call them 5 times).

na85 6y ago

How could the telcos enforce this if they can't even stop spammers from spoofing numbers?

kalleboo 6y ago
Just charge higher termination rates?
gogopuppygogo 6y ago
We use algos to block spam. We can do the same for robo dialers.
- na85 6y ago
  >We use algos to block spam. Assuming you mean "we" as in "we, the telcos": No offense but it's not working.

pjc50 6y ago

Hey, I remember when calls used to cost money! But then again I'm in the UK where the robocall problem is much smaller for some reason.

consp 6y ago
Not from my perspective: I keep receiving UK phone number spam calls, and I do not even live in the UK. So far I blocked all UK numbers using a blocker app. This is due to the some UK numbers being "reusable" as well and location bound. There are numbers from businesses who went bankrupt and are now being used as they sometimes show up as "named numbers".

ta_robocall 6y ago

another one. A calls B, A now owes 9999.. to B (via phone company, billing), if B calls A back at least once, we now know there is a link and every call between these two numbers goes as usual. two birds with one stone. punish robocallers, awards those affected by them.

curryst 6y ago

Doesn't the system to bill people's phone lines still exist? I presume telcos have made that immune to number spoofing since there's money on the line. Just make it so that reporting the call as spam triggers a $1 charge to the caller. Something that won't ruin anybody's life if their ex-spouse decides to be a shitty person, but enough that it makes spam calling no longer profitable.

cryptonector 6y ago

Or -hear me out- if every call was authenticated... then abusers could get locked out of the network, fined, etc.