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I’ve heard my right wing family members talk about voter fraud since at least 2000, but it’s basically a symptom of the bigger problem, which is a failure of be

I’ve heard my right wing family members talk about voter fraud since at least 2000, but it’s basically a symptom of the bigger problem, which is a failure of belief in human nature. Changing the topic briefly, how do I know that 9/11 was not an “inside job”? Do I know anything about whether jet fuel melts steel or surveillance of the Pentagon hit, etc.? No, I do not. How then? Well, I know human nature, and so I know a conspiracy involving thousands of people cannot be hidden successfully for twenty years. Okay, so was there widespread voter fraud in 2020? Prior elections? I’m not an expert in election monitoring, but again, I know about human nature and the mainstream media, so I know that if there were, it would be known. But the Republicans have decided they just don’t believe in Americans anymore, so they don’t trust anything. It makes unity impossible. I think the only cure unless something really changes is divorce.

Ancapistani 6y ago
> Changing the topic briefly, how do I know that 9/11 was not an “inside job”? If you enter the conversation believing that, then I suppose you have no way of knowing. It's reasonable that people tell you you're wrong and that your belief is crazy. The difference that I see is that people don't tend to tell you that you - specifically you - are evil because of your beliefs. > How then? Well, I know human nature, and so I know a conspiracy involving thousands of people cannot be hidden successfully for twenty years. I'm not so sure about that. Consider that the F-117 first flew in 1981 but wasn't made public until 1988. MKUltra was operational from 1953-1973 but wasn't mentioned at all in the public record until 1975 during a Senate hearing. There were very few details made public then, and it wasn't until the mid 1990s that the full scope of the project started to come to light. I remember when "MKUltra" was really only something discussed in conspiracy circles; I first heard the name on Coast to Coast AM in the early 2000s. > Okay, so was there widespread voter fraud in 2020? Prior elections? I’m not an expert in election monitoring, but again, I know about human nature and the mainstream media, so I know that if there were, it would be known. First, let me clarify that I don't even have a strong position on this. I don't think it's likely that voter fraud was a deciding factor in the 2020 election, nor that it happened significantly more or less than in prior elections. That said, looking at this objectively, you assert "if there were, it would be known." According to the polling I referenced in the GP, it is "known" by ~60% of GOP voters. > But the Republicans have decided they just don’t believe in Americans anymore, This strikes me as a non sequitur. They don't trust the prevailing narrative - which again, I strongly believe is likely to be the truth - but it doesn't follow that they "don't believe in Americans." > so they don’t trust anything. THIS is the core issue I see. Putting myself in the shoes of a stereotypical GOP voter, I would be distrustful of the media due to their extensive coverage of "Russiagate" (which I would see as having been either a complete fabrication or a partisan witch hunt) and their silence on the "Hunter Biden's laptop" story (which I would be confident would have been the primary issue in the election if it had not been covered up). I would be distrustful of social media due to what has been presented to me as the ongoing suppression of conservative voices across multiple platforms, followed by the aggressive deplatforming of Trump on Jan 7th. Finally, I would be distrustful of the government itself because of the "Deep State" narrative that Trump and others have repeatedly reinforced over the past ~5 years. At that point... who would I trust? Where would I turn to find facts? From that perspective, it looks like there has been a consistent and successful campaign to keep me from being able to trust every single previously reliable source of information. > It makes unity impossible. I think the only cure unless something really changes is divorce. I completely agree with you. The way things are today, the two "sides" here have irreconcilable differences. Whether or not they want to work together is honestly largely irrelevant; they each believe the other to be both malicious and to have a long history of deception. I truly don't see a clear path forward that maintains these two communities living in the same polity.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  > That said, looking at this objectively, you assert "if there were, it would be known." According to the polling I referenced in the GP, it is "known" by ~60% of GOP voters. It is not known by a court of law, despite numerous opportunities for the Trump team to do so. At best, Trump is so incompetent that he predicted massive fraud before the election, had it happen, and then failed to collect any evidence of its having happened. If he's really that incompetent, we're better off with the fraudsters. Again, it doesn't take deep insight to figure out the above. It's just common sense about human nature, how the courts work, how the media works, etc. Re: Hunter Biden's laptop, the Trump team chose to sit on the story until October, so the media chose to ignore it. Impeachment #1 had already made it clear that Trump was planning to attack Hunter. Why should the media choose to let themselves be played? If Trump's team wanted the story to be publicized, they had months and months to do it but instead they waited until October and the media declined to cover a story that was a best irrelevant to Biden Sr.'s job performance.

Ancapistani 6y ago

> Changing the topic briefly, how do I know that 9/11 was not an “inside job”? If you enter the conversation believing that, then I suppose you have no way of knowing. It's reasonable that people tell you you're wrong and that your belief is crazy. The difference that I see is that people don't tend to tell you that you - specifically you - are evil because of your beliefs. > How then? Well, I know human nature, and so I know a conspiracy involving thousands of people cannot be hidden successfully for twenty years. I'm not so sure about that. Consider that the F-117 first flew in 1981 but wasn't made public until 1988. MKUltra was operational from 1953-1973 but wasn't mentioned at all in the public record until 1975 during a Senate hearing. There were very few details made public then, and it wasn't until the mid 1990s that the full scope of the project started to come to light. I remember when "MKUltra" was really only something discussed in conspiracy circles; I first heard the name on Coast to Coast AM in the early 2000s. > Okay, so was there widespread voter fraud in 2020? Prior elections? I’m not an expert in election monitoring, but again, I know about human nature and the mainstream media, so I know that if there were, it would be known. First, let me clarify that I don't even have a strong position on this. I don't think it's likely that voter fraud was a deciding factor in the 2020 election, nor that it happened significantly more or less than in prior elections. That said, looking at this objectively, you assert "if there were, it would be known." According to the polling I referenced in the GP, it is "known" by ~60% of GOP voters. > But the Republicans have decided they just don’t believe in Americans anymore, This strikes me as a non sequitur. They don't trust the prevailing narrative - which again, I strongly believe is likely to be the truth - but it doesn't follow that they "don't believe in Americans." > so they don’t trust anything. THIS is the core issue I see. Putting myself in the shoes of a stereotypical GOP voter, I would be distrustful of the media due to their extensive coverage of "Russiagate" (which I would see as having been either a complete fabrication or a partisan witch hunt) and their silence on the "Hunter Biden's laptop" story (which I would be confident would have been the primary issue in the election if it had not been covered up). I would be distrustful of social media due to what has been presented to me as the ongoing suppression of conservative voices across multiple platforms, followed by the aggressive deplatforming of Trump on Jan 7th. Finally, I would be distrustful of the government itself because of the "Deep State" narrative that Trump and others have repeatedly reinforced over the past ~5 years. At that point... who would I trust? Where would I turn to find facts? From that perspective, it looks like there has been a consistent and successful campaign to keep me from being able to trust every single previously reliable source of information. > It makes unity impossible. I think the only cure unless something really changes is divorce. I completely agree with you. The way things are today, the two "sides" here have irreconcilable differences. Whether or not they want to work together is honestly largely irrelevant; they each believe the other to be both malicious and to have a long history of deception. I truly don't see a clear path forward that maintains these two communities living in the same polity.

earthboundkid 6y ago
> That said, looking at this objectively, you assert "if there were, it would be known." According to the polling I referenced in the GP, it is "known" by ~60% of GOP voters. It is not known by a court of law, despite numerous opportunities for the Trump team to do so. At best, Trump is so incompetent that he predicted massive fraud before the election, had it happen, and then failed to collect any evidence of its having happened. If he's really that incompetent, we're better off with the fraudsters. Again, it doesn't take deep insight to figure out the above. It's just common sense about human nature, how the courts work, how the media works, etc. Re: Hunter Biden's laptop, the Trump team chose to sit on the story until October, so the media chose to ignore it. Impeachment #1 had already made it clear that Trump was planning to attack Hunter. Why should the media choose to let themselves be played? If Trump's team wanted the story to be publicized, they had months and months to do it but instead they waited until October and the media declined to cover a story that was a best irrelevant to Biden Sr.'s job performance.