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That’s balooney. Russia absolutely has a choice whether or not to invade and annex Ukraine. The West is not at war with Russia, has no desire to invade Russia,

That’s balooney. Russia absolutely has a choice whether or not to invade and annex Ukraine. The West is not at war with Russia, has no desire to invade Russia, and even offered to admit Russia to NATO. This is imperialist justification of literally invading and annexing parts of another country that they consider a renegade vassal state. It’s not defensive in the least. Come on, this is super weak justification.

sudosysgen 6y ago
The West never offered to admit Russia into NATO. It was Russia that made the proposition, and there was no pursuit beyond years of stalling. Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine because they consider it to be a vassal state, Russia only invaded Ukraine after the Euromaidan movement suceeded and pursued integration into the EU and NATO. What you are saying may well be the propaganda Putin and his proto-fascist cabal give, but it is not the actual reason, or they would have acted much before and wouldn't have stopped in the Donbass.
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  They haven't stopped and are, in fact, amassing troops in Crimea and elsewhere: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589 And again, who Ukraine wants to align with is Ukraine's choice. Just like the US has no business demanding Cuba cannot align with the Soviet Union or Venezuela (threatening or especially invading them in response being morally reprehensible), Ukraine must be free and sovereign and in command of its own future.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Of course they haven't stopped. They must maintain a conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and the West, and they will only allow for peace if Ukraine stops trying. Who Ukraine wants to align with is Ukraine's choice as a matter of fact, and as a matter of fact where Russia puts its troops is also it's choice. You can't compare Ukraine with Cuba or Venezuela. This is as if, after Mexico had joined the Soviet Union, Canada was about to do so as well. It's a core Russian national interest. No matter how Russia is structured, it simply won't ever allow NATO to share a border with it. The West invaded Russia on average every 40 years since the start of the 19th century, and just three decades ago American intervention in Russia led to the death of millions. There is no comparison, from the Russian perspective this is a matter of survival, they perceive that if NATO is able to surround Russia they will use this tactical advantage to ruin the country. Should Ukraine in theory be able to join NATO? Morally, you may very well feel that way. But in the world of real politics, you cannot always chose the moral action unless you are a Hegemon. Otherwise, millions of people will suffer. It's just how it is. And unlike you were claiming, it has nothing to do with some ideals of national identity or manifest destiny, it's simply a cold geopolitical calculation that concludes that Ukraine in NATO is unacceptable and will probably in the long run lead to mass misery.
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      Such wonderful logic authoritarians use nowadays. The bully has to abuse their victim for “their own survival.” And anytime they yell for help, just punch them harder in the gut. No choice, you see!
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        This has nothing to do with authoritarianism. These are three incredibly authoritarian geopolitical entities struggling against each other. And compared to NATO, Russia absolutely is the underdog. But sure, good on you for missing the point. It's very principled to just ignore reality. It's not like Russia got absolutely fucked and millions of people died when they tried to open up to Western Europe the last time. What matters really is that we can pretend that Russia is the bad guy and we aren't when they occupy a region whose majority want to secede anyways from another authoritarian oligarchy to prevent a military alliance who only ever operated offensively and was involved in the deaths of millions of people to settle on their borders, right after the puppetmasters of that region trafficked the Russian elections to extract hundreds of billions from its economy at the cost of millions of deaths. But surely what matters here in this incredibly complicated situation is to follow the Moral (tm) course of action even if it drastically increases the risk of war and suffering.

sudosysgen 6y ago

The West never offered to admit Russia into NATO. It was Russia that made the proposition, and there was no pursuit beyond years of stalling. Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine because they consider it to be a vassal state, Russia only invaded Ukraine after the Euromaidan movement suceeded and pursued integration into the EU and NATO. What you are saying may well be the propaganda Putin and his proto-fascist cabal give, but it is not the actual reason, or they would have acted much before and wouldn't have stopped in the Donbass.

Robotbeat 6y ago
They haven't stopped and are, in fact, amassing troops in Crimea and elsewhere: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589 And again, who Ukraine wants to align with is Ukraine's choice. Just like the US has no business demanding Cuba cannot align with the Soviet Union or Venezuela (threatening or especially invading them in response being morally reprehensible), Ukraine must be free and sovereign and in command of its own future.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Of course they haven't stopped. They must maintain a conflict to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO and the West, and they will only allow for peace if Ukraine stops trying. Who Ukraine wants to align with is Ukraine's choice as a matter of fact, and as a matter of fact where Russia puts its troops is also it's choice. You can't compare Ukraine with Cuba or Venezuela. This is as if, after Mexico had joined the Soviet Union, Canada was about to do so as well. It's a core Russian national interest. No matter how Russia is structured, it simply won't ever allow NATO to share a border with it. The West invaded Russia on average every 40 years since the start of the 19th century, and just three decades ago American intervention in Russia led to the death of millions. There is no comparison, from the Russian perspective this is a matter of survival, they perceive that if NATO is able to surround Russia they will use this tactical advantage to ruin the country. Should Ukraine in theory be able to join NATO? Morally, you may very well feel that way. But in the world of real politics, you cannot always chose the moral action unless you are a Hegemon. Otherwise, millions of people will suffer. It's just how it is. And unlike you were claiming, it has nothing to do with some ideals of national identity or manifest destiny, it's simply a cold geopolitical calculation that concludes that Ukraine in NATO is unacceptable and will probably in the long run lead to mass misery.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    Such wonderful logic authoritarians use nowadays. The bully has to abuse their victim for “their own survival.” And anytime they yell for help, just punch them harder in the gut. No choice, you see!
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      This has nothing to do with authoritarianism. These are three incredibly authoritarian geopolitical entities struggling against each other. And compared to NATO, Russia absolutely is the underdog. But sure, good on you for missing the point. It's very principled to just ignore reality. It's not like Russia got absolutely fucked and millions of people died when they tried to open up to Western Europe the last time. What matters really is that we can pretend that Russia is the bad guy and we aren't when they occupy a region whose majority want to secede anyways from another authoritarian oligarchy to prevent a military alliance who only ever operated offensively and was involved in the deaths of millions of people to settle on their borders, right after the puppetmasters of that region trafficked the Russian elections to extract hundreds of billions from its economy at the cost of millions of deaths. But surely what matters here in this incredibly complicated situation is to follow the Moral (tm) course of action even if it drastically increases the risk of war and suffering.