3 ms·

Yes, if they convert to Judaism. Seems reasonable, Judaism doesn't ban any ethnic minorities.

whimsicalism 5y ago
Sorry, what was this about "not being governed by religious law"? > full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ So not full rights for religious minorities. Moreover, conversion is quite difficult and the process is made much easier if you have a parent who is Jewish (which generally forms an ethnic group). Only recently were non-Orthodox conversions recognized for this purpose: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-jewish-converts-citizenship.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-j... Also, if you are from Palestine or Iran, you are excluded from citizenship via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Isr... ie. specifically on the basis of your ethnicity &/or national origin. I find it hard to take seriously claims of equal & full rights for minorities when those rights require converting to a different religion or being of a different ethnicity in order to apply to you.
- hoka-one-one 5y ago
  It's important for people to understand that Judaism is a minority religion that has been historically persecuted. There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary, especially since "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, so in the current historical context failing to preserve Judaism means failing to preserve Jews. Empowering BIPOC isn't about expecting all the same things. It's about giving BIPOC the resources they need for their ethnic and cultural self-determination.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    How does denying citizenship to minorities help preserve Jewish culture? I'm glad you've backed away from the "equal rights for all rhetoric" though. It's too bad Afrikaners didn't try harder to "preserve the traditional and culture" of minority rule in South Africa as well. Historical persecution doesn't justify enthnostates in my mind, I didn't realize this was a controversial opinion. e: Since you've now edited your comment to include the statement about "BIPOC", Jewishness is orthogonal to "BIPOC" and most Jewish people are white. I say that as someone of Sephardic descent.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    > There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary "a small amount of ethnic homogeneity" seems like a deliberate minimization. Israel is an apartheid state that has been persecuting based on ethnicity and religion for decades.
monocasa 5y ago
That's actually not as clear as you might think. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/10/15/the-jews-from-ethiopia-who-confound-israels-law-of-return https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/10/15/...

Sorry, what was this about "not being governed by religious law"? > full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ So not full rights for religious minorities. Moreover, conversion is quite difficult and the process is made much easier if you have a parent who is Jewish (which generally forms an ethnic group). Only recently were non-Orthodox conversions recognized for this purpose: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-jewish-converts-citizenship.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-j... Also, if you are from Palestine or Iran, you are excluded from citizenship via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Isr... ie. specifically on the basis of your ethnicity &/or national origin. I find it hard to take seriously claims of equal & full rights for minorities when those rights require converting to a different religion or being of a different ethnicity in order to apply to you.

hoka-one-one 5y ago
It's important for people to understand that Judaism is a minority religion that has been historically persecuted. There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary, especially since "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, so in the current historical context failing to preserve Judaism means failing to preserve Jews. Empowering BIPOC isn't about expecting all the same things. It's about giving BIPOC the resources they need for their ethnic and cultural self-determination.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  How does denying citizenship to minorities help preserve Jewish culture? I'm glad you've backed away from the "equal rights for all rhetoric" though. It's too bad Afrikaners didn't try harder to "preserve the traditional and culture" of minority rule in South Africa as well. Historical persecution doesn't justify enthnostates in my mind, I didn't realize this was a controversial opinion. e: Since you've now edited your comment to include the statement about "BIPOC", Jewishness is orthogonal to "BIPOC" and most Jewish people are white. I say that as someone of Sephardic descent.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- cwkoss 5y ago
  > There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary "a small amount of ethnic homogeneity" seems like a deliberate minimization. Israel is an apartheid state that has been persecuting based on ethnicity and religion for decades.

monocasa 5y ago

That's actually not as clear as you might think. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/10/15/the-jews-from-ethiopia-who-confound-israels-law-of-return https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2020/10/15/...