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Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batt

Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batteries are consumable and are guaranteed to start wearing down within a few years, whereas the SSD, keyboard, monitor, etc. are likely to last a long time, so it was surprising that they advertised its repairability even with this significant omission. I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that can't be replaced. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(15-inch)+Teardown/127277#s246879 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...

penagwin 5y ago
I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design, You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0]. From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries. tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though.... [0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med... [1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
  Yes, of course it’s a design Limitation or, as I‘d call it, trade-off. A very few conspiracy theorists may belief it’s “planned obsolescence”. But a model that just places a larger premium on thinness than HN professes to do is far better at explaining this and a number of similar decisions by all sorts of companies.
  - jasonfarnon 5y ago
    It could be that apple places a greater premium on thinness and that position just so happens to have as a byproduct early obsolescence and better profits. But I don't see why that's any more plausible than what you call conspiracy theories.
    - antattack 5y ago
      Planned obsolescence is not a conspiracy - it's a business decision.
      - simonh 5y ago
        From the company with industry leading support periods, device lifetimes and second hand value retention. If their intention is to deprecate devices early, they're objectively doing an incredibly terrible job at it.
        antattack 5y ago
        Durability and cost are usually polar opposites. I suppose planned obsolescence is not the best term to describe it however engineers do certainly factor in product lifetime (as much as they can) into their designs.
    - Toutouxc 5y ago
      I'm looking at my GF, she's on the couch, watching an online uni lecture and writing Markdown on my 7yo MacBook Pro. Original battery, updated from Mavericks all the way to Big Sur. Runs fine, a few hours of battery life. My dad has a 2014 Mac Mini, currently on Catalina, runs fine. My sister's BF also has MacBook Pro that he's been abusing for the last six years. His battery is almost dead, but the machine itself runs fine. My ex-GF is still rocking her iPad Mini (the first retina model) that she bought in 2014. She loves the thing and the thing loves her back. If Apple is in the business of early or planned obsolescence, they're fucking terrible at it.
conradev 5y ago
Huh? The battery on every MacBook is replaceable > Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries. https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/ https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/ A glued in battery on any laptop/tablet/phone is awful. My sister replaced her battery on her 2011 MacBook Air and used it just fine for a decade. Didn’t need to replace any of the other parts.
- techrat 5y ago
  The glue in a Macbook for the battery is wholly unnecessary when it can be pointed out that the argument for glue (waterproofing) doesn't even apply in their laptop space. It's meant to make end user replacement of the battery as difficult as possible.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    I’m confused. Why would water proofing be less applicable to a (or their) laptop products?
    - nimchimpsky 5y ago
      Do you use your laptop in the rain ? Do you use your phone in the rain ?
    - techrat 5y ago
      Keyboard and chassis isn't waterproof on Macbooks, thus, the common argument for glued in batteries on other Apple devices (iPhone) in that it aides with waterproofing is rendered moot when it comes to Macbooks.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    > Do you use your laptop in the rain ? No but I use it next to glasses of water? > Do you use your phone in the rain ? When I have to. I walk my dog in a rainy city. Edit: do you use your desktop in the rain? Maybe I’m missing a use case I don’t understand. Because so far we’ve ruled out any water-tolerance cases I can think of.

penagwin 5y ago

I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design, You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0]. From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries. tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though.... [0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med... [1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
IAmEveryone 5y ago
Yes, of course it’s a design Limitation or, as I‘d call it, trade-off. A very few conspiracy theorists may belief it’s “planned obsolescence”. But a model that just places a larger premium on thinness than HN professes to do is far better at explaining this and a number of similar decisions by all sorts of companies.
- jasonfarnon 5y ago
  It could be that apple places a greater premium on thinness and that position just so happens to have as a byproduct early obsolescence and better profits. But I don't see why that's any more plausible than what you call conspiracy theories.
  - antattack 5y ago
    Planned obsolescence is not a conspiracy - it's a business decision.
    - simonh 5y ago
      From the company with industry leading support periods, device lifetimes and second hand value retention. If their intention is to deprecate devices early, they're objectively doing an incredibly terrible job at it.
      - antattack 5y ago
        Durability and cost are usually polar opposites. I suppose planned obsolescence is not the best term to describe it however engineers do certainly factor in product lifetime (as much as they can) into their designs.
  - Toutouxc 5y ago
    I'm looking at my GF, she's on the couch, watching an online uni lecture and writing Markdown on my 7yo MacBook Pro. Original battery, updated from Mavericks all the way to Big Sur. Runs fine, a few hours of battery life. My dad has a 2014 Mac Mini, currently on Catalina, runs fine. My sister's BF also has MacBook Pro that he's been abusing for the last six years. His battery is almost dead, but the machine itself runs fine. My ex-GF is still rocking her iPad Mini (the first retina model) that she bought in 2014. She loves the thing and the thing loves her back. If Apple is in the business of early or planned obsolescence, they're fucking terrible at it.

conradev 5y ago

Huh? The battery on every MacBook is replaceable > Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries. https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/ https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/ A glued in battery on any laptop/tablet/phone is awful. My sister replaced her battery on her 2011 MacBook Air and used it just fine for a decade. Didn’t need to replace any of the other parts.

techrat 5y ago
The glue in a Macbook for the battery is wholly unnecessary when it can be pointed out that the argument for glue (waterproofing) doesn't even apply in their laptop space. It's meant to make end user replacement of the battery as difficult as possible.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  I’m confused. Why would water proofing be less applicable to a (or their) laptop products?
  - nimchimpsky 5y ago
    Do you use your laptop in the rain ? Do you use your phone in the rain ?
  - techrat 5y ago
    Keyboard and chassis isn't waterproof on Macbooks, thus, the common argument for glued in batteries on other Apple devices (iPhone) in that it aides with waterproofing is rendered moot when it comes to Macbooks.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  > Do you use your laptop in the rain ? No but I use it next to glasses of water? > Do you use your phone in the rain ? When I have to. I walk my dog in a rainy city. Edit: do you use your desktop in the rain? Maybe I’m missing a use case I don’t understand. Because so far we’ve ruled out any water-tolerance cases I can think of.