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Is Israel that much different? It seems like if you're committed to empowering all BIPOC you would not restrict their access to the weaponry needed to defend t

Is Israel that much different? It seems like if you're committed to empowering all BIPOC you would not restrict their access to the weaponry needed to defend their homelands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

mvzvm 5y ago
Israel is not governed by religious law, and has full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ. Its basis for most policy is a blend of social democracy and neoliberalism. Its military is purely defensive. I cannot say any of those things about Iran in good faith. Also, the what-about-ism is not a great defense of anything geopolitical btw.
- hoka-one-one 5y ago
  What do you think would happen if the US and all of Europe completely pulled out of the Middle East? Would Israel stay the size it is now? If not, can you really say it's "purely defensive"?
  - mvzvm 5y ago
    I am not sure what you are implying. Can you elaborate? Are you saying Israel would go attack its neighbors and seize land? From Egypt? Jordan? Lebanon? If so, that's an absurd proposition with absolutely no geopolitical data points to back it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - hoka-one-one 5y ago
      I don't think it's too absurd to imply that a country would expand into weaker neighboring countries if it could. One example where the US has intervened is Egypt -- without the US the Sinai Peninsula would surely be part of Israel right now. So yes I'd say it would seize land from Egypt, as it already has.
  - sharikous 5y ago
    If the US and Europe pulled out of the Middle East it would be too chaotic to predict anything. It depends on the presence of other superpowers (Russia, China) and the pecking order that would be established between the regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Iran, Egypt + the Sunni world). Also, "pulling out" is too simplistic. There are not only troops on the ground, but also military bases, joint exercises, weapon sales, commercial ties, industrial ties, scientific collaborations, cultural influences, and so on and so forth. Short of disappearing from the globe the US cannot just 'pull out'
- scatters 5y ago
  Not governed by religious law? 9000 Israelis get married in neighbouring countries each year because their relationship wouldn't satisfy the Orthodox rabbis who run the show. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Are ethnic minorities extended the "right of return" in Israel? Last I checked this was not the case.
  - hoka-one-one 5y ago
    Yes, if they convert to Judaism. Seems reasonable, Judaism doesn't ban any ethnic minorities.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Sorry, what was this about "not being governed by religious law"? > full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ So not full rights for religious minorities. Moreover, conversion is quite difficult and the process is made much easier if you have a parent who is Jewish (which generally forms an ethnic group). Only recently were non-Orthodox conversions recognized for this purpose: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-jewish-converts-citizenship.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-j... Also, if you are from Palestine or Iran, you are excluded from citizenship via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Isr... ie. specifically on the basis of your ethnicity &/or national origin. I find it hard to take seriously claims of equal & full rights for minorities when those rights require converting to a different religion or being of a different ethnicity in order to apply to you.
      - hoka-one-one 5y ago
        It's important for people to understand that Judaism is a minority religion that has been historically persecuted. There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary, especially since "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, so in the current historical context failing to preserve Judaism means failing to preserve Jews. Empowering BIPOC isn't about expecting all the same things. It's about giving BIPOC the resources they need for their ethnic and cultural self-determination.
- moyasari 5y ago
  Purely defensive? What a joke. The Zionist Apartheid state of Israel was literally formed by stealing the land of Palestine and murdering its population. So much for "self defense".
pepperonipizza 5y ago
Is this some kind of a bad joke? Because some countries have BIPOC if they want nukes to not hinder their empowerment nobody should intervene. If all the countries in MENA have nukes, this would be terrible for everybody, it would exponentially rise the risk of nuclear warheads being used.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Is there an impartial standard that we could use in determining which countries we should allow to have nukes? Why should the US allow Israel to have nukes when we spend so much energy preventing Iran from doing the same?

mvzvm 5y ago

Israel is not governed by religious law, and has full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ. Its basis for most policy is a blend of social democracy and neoliberalism. Its military is purely defensive. I cannot say any of those things about Iran in good faith. Also, the what-about-ism is not a great defense of anything geopolitical btw.

hoka-one-one 5y ago
What do you think would happen if the US and all of Europe completely pulled out of the Middle East? Would Israel stay the size it is now? If not, can you really say it's "purely defensive"?
- mvzvm 5y ago
  I am not sure what you are implying. Can you elaborate? Are you saying Israel would go attack its neighbors and seize land? From Egypt? Jordan? Lebanon? If so, that's an absurd proposition with absolutely no geopolitical data points to back it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hoka-one-one 5y ago
    I don't think it's too absurd to imply that a country would expand into weaker neighboring countries if it could. One example where the US has intervened is Egypt -- without the US the Sinai Peninsula would surely be part of Israel right now. So yes I'd say it would seize land from Egypt, as it already has.
- sharikous 5y ago
  If the US and Europe pulled out of the Middle East it would be too chaotic to predict anything. It depends on the presence of other superpowers (Russia, China) and the pecking order that would be established between the regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Iran, Egypt + the Sunni world). Also, "pulling out" is too simplistic. There are not only troops on the ground, but also military bases, joint exercises, weapon sales, commercial ties, industrial ties, scientific collaborations, cultural influences, and so on and so forth. Short of disappearing from the globe the US cannot just 'pull out'
scatters 5y ago
Not governed by religious law? 9000 Israelis get married in neighbouring countries each year because their relationship wouldn't satisfy the Orthodox rabbis who run the show. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel
whimsicalism 5y ago
Are ethnic minorities extended the "right of return" in Israel? Last I checked this was not the case.
- hoka-one-one 5y ago
  Yes, if they convert to Judaism. Seems reasonable, Judaism doesn't ban any ethnic minorities.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Sorry, what was this about "not being governed by religious law"? > full rights for women, minorities, and LGBTQ So not full rights for religious minorities. Moreover, conversion is quite difficult and the process is made much easier if you have a parent who is Jewish (which generally forms an ethnic group). Only recently were non-Orthodox conversions recognized for this purpose: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-jewish-converts-citizenship.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-j... Also, if you are from Palestine or Iran, you are excluded from citizenship via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Isr... ie. specifically on the basis of your ethnicity &/or national origin. I find it hard to take seriously claims of equal & full rights for minorities when those rights require converting to a different religion or being of a different ethnicity in order to apply to you.
    - hoka-one-one 5y ago
      It's important for people to understand that Judaism is a minority religion that has been historically persecuted. There is nothing wrong with working to preserve the tradition and culture, and if it ends in a small amount of ethnic homogeneity then it has to be accepted as necessary, especially since "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity, so in the current historical context failing to preserve Judaism means failing to preserve Jews. Empowering BIPOC isn't about expecting all the same things. It's about giving BIPOC the resources they need for their ethnic and cultural self-determination.
moyasari 5y ago
Purely defensive? What a joke. The Zionist Apartheid state of Israel was literally formed by stealing the land of Palestine and murdering its population. So much for "self defense".

pepperonipizza 5y ago

Is this some kind of a bad joke? Because some countries have BIPOC if they want nukes to not hinder their empowerment nobody should intervene. If all the countries in MENA have nukes, this would be terrible for everybody, it would exponentially rise the risk of nuclear warheads being used.

cwkoss 5y ago
Is there an impartial standard that we could use in determining which countries we should allow to have nukes? Why should the US allow Israel to have nukes when we spend so much energy preventing Iran from doing the same?