5 ms·

> For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded What! :- ) Well founded fears, I'd say: I've been

> For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded What! :- ) Well founded fears, I'd say: I've been typing in Colemak for 10+ years and if I switch to QWERTY I'm significantly slower than before I started using Colemak. — But I'm still glad I made the switch. > the typing speed is not the productivity bottleneck Yes agreed. I'd only recommend a software person to switch, if they think the learning process seems fun. But maybe if one writes novels, it's nice to type faster? Or someone who writes a lot here at HN :- ) > hotkeys are generally a MESS Colemak: Hotkeys = fine :- )

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> What! :- ) Well founded fears, I'd say: I've been typing in Colemak for 10+ years and if I switch to QWERTY I'm significantly slower than before I started using Colemak. I'm not a Colemak user, but from my experiences with Dvorak, I have a theory on why this happens. Precisely because it shares many keys with QWERTY! Explanation: when I type in Dvorak or QWERTY, the only hesitation is when I type the first letter of a text I need to type. Then, a muscle memory kicks in and I type without thinking. The only exception: words starting with letter "A". This letter is special, because it is the only key that has the same position in both Dvorak and QWERTY! So when I type words starting with "A", my muscle memory kicks in not on first typed letter, but on second! With Colemak, I guess this effect might be in full swing for almost every letter you type, and THAT would be a significant problem. So what is sold as being Colemak's advantage is probably a disadvantage if you need to type on different types of keyboards.
- cicko 5y ago
  Then you don't use the letter M? Oh, this reminds me showing Dvorak to a colleague. He asks: "So, where is the letter A?" - "Mmm, right here, where it is in Qwerty." - "OK. And where is, for example, letter M?" - "Mmm, right here, where it is in Qwerty." - "So, what's the point, then?"
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Hm, you are right! M is too on the same place in both layouts, but I never had a hesitation with it. Maybe it only applied to vowels ..
- KajMagnus 5y ago
  Sounds like a good explanation. Also, if I have two passwords AA and AB that are similar to each other, then, if I use only AA for a while, I easily forget AB, or start including parts of AA in AB. — Is there a word for this? For forgetting and messing/mixing up things, because they are too similar to each other
linknoid 5y ago
As a full time developer, I'm sure my typing speed directly affects my productivity (probably between 80-100 wpm in Dvorak). There are a lot of times I'm typing at full speed for hours, aided by code auto-completion and vim macros, and since the program already exists in my head, the limiting factor is how fast I can type it out. Other times not so much, I'm sitting there reading code, or debugging line by line, or whatever. But when I'm ready to code, my typing speed is the single biggest factor of how fast I can get it out.
- KajMagnus 5y ago
  Hmm I have a bit forgotten how things were, before Colemak. I was typing mostly software things, when I decided to switch. I think I a bit felt like you do. > But when I'm ready to code, my typing speed is the single biggest factor Especially when writing docs / comments for that code, then it's mostly English words (rather than `(){};!+-,[]` things)
  - linknoid 5y ago
    So did you switch from Dvorak to Colemak? I just did a typing test on code-like things, and my typing speed is much slower, around 45 wpm, although that's normally accelerated by an IDE. I started learning Colemak for about a day a few years ago, and then decided that it wouldn't actually benefit me over Dvorak, especially because vi keybindings are quite important. Is the big improvement that it leaves {} in their original place instead of the farther reach?
    - KajMagnus 5y ago
      I just had a quick look at Dvorak, and then picked Colemak instead because of more similar shortcuts. — It took weeks or months to get up to speed in Colemak. But it was a bit fun, fortunately. (How long did it take, with Dvorak?) When the typing speed difference between Dvorak and Colemak is so small (it is?), I would say to myself that any of them is better than good enough and be happy :- ) There's also tools like tmux and fzf / skim, don't know if you're using them already; if not, I'd guess they'd save more time than learning Colemak. > especially because vi keybindings are quite important Oh I have nice Vi keybindings in Colemak — I use Vi always: VSCode, IntelliJ etc. On the keyboard, I've mapped the N physical key to down, H to up, and left is Backspace (and Y which I never use), and right is Space and U. So I don't use the HJKL keys for navigation (well, H but it means Up for me). This leaves the J K L keys available to do their usual things, in Vi — they map to N E I in Colemak (apparently you've noticed this :- )) which I use all the time. > Is the big improvement that it leaves {} in their original place I don't think so. I'd say, it's probably the shortcuts, and that many shortcuts continue working with the left hand only (e.g. using the mouse to select text, then the left hand to CTRL+C +V copy-paste).

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

> What! :- ) Well founded fears, I'd say: I've been typing in Colemak for 10+ years and if I switch to QWERTY I'm significantly slower than before I started using Colemak. I'm not a Colemak user, but from my experiences with Dvorak, I have a theory on why this happens. Precisely because it shares many keys with QWERTY! Explanation: when I type in Dvorak or QWERTY, the only hesitation is when I type the first letter of a text I need to type. Then, a muscle memory kicks in and I type without thinking. The only exception: words starting with letter "A". This letter is special, because it is the only key that has the same position in both Dvorak and QWERTY! So when I type words starting with "A", my muscle memory kicks in not on first typed letter, but on second! With Colemak, I guess this effect might be in full swing for almost every letter you type, and THAT would be a significant problem. So what is sold as being Colemak's advantage is probably a disadvantage if you need to type on different types of keyboards.

cicko 5y ago
Then you don't use the letter M? Oh, this reminds me showing Dvorak to a colleague. He asks: "So, where is the letter A?" - "Mmm, right here, where it is in Qwerty." - "OK. And where is, for example, letter M?" - "Mmm, right here, where it is in Qwerty." - "So, what's the point, then?"
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Hm, you are right! M is too on the same place in both layouts, but I never had a hesitation with it. Maybe it only applied to vowels ..
KajMagnus 5y ago
Sounds like a good explanation. Also, if I have two passwords AA and AB that are similar to each other, then, if I use only AA for a while, I easily forget AB, or start including parts of AA in AB. — Is there a word for this? For forgetting and messing/mixing up things, because they are too similar to each other

linknoid 5y ago

As a full time developer, I'm sure my typing speed directly affects my productivity (probably between 80-100 wpm in Dvorak). There are a lot of times I'm typing at full speed for hours, aided by code auto-completion and vim macros, and since the program already exists in my head, the limiting factor is how fast I can type it out. Other times not so much, I'm sitting there reading code, or debugging line by line, or whatever. But when I'm ready to code, my typing speed is the single biggest factor of how fast I can get it out.

KajMagnus 5y ago
Hmm I have a bit forgotten how things were, before Colemak. I was typing mostly software things, when I decided to switch. I think I a bit felt like you do. > But when I'm ready to code, my typing speed is the single biggest factor Especially when writing docs / comments for that code, then it's mostly English words (rather than `(){};!+-,[]` things)
- linknoid 5y ago
  So did you switch from Dvorak to Colemak? I just did a typing test on code-like things, and my typing speed is much slower, around 45 wpm, although that's normally accelerated by an IDE. I started learning Colemak for about a day a few years ago, and then decided that it wouldn't actually benefit me over Dvorak, especially because vi keybindings are quite important. Is the big improvement that it leaves {} in their original place instead of the farther reach?
  - KajMagnus 5y ago
    I just had a quick look at Dvorak, and then picked Colemak instead because of more similar shortcuts. — It took weeks or months to get up to speed in Colemak. But it was a bit fun, fortunately. (How long did it take, with Dvorak?) When the typing speed difference between Dvorak and Colemak is so small (it is?), I would say to myself that any of them is better than good enough and be happy :- ) There's also tools like tmux and fzf / skim, don't know if you're using them already; if not, I'd guess they'd save more time than learning Colemak. > especially because vi keybindings are quite important Oh I have nice Vi keybindings in Colemak — I use Vi always: VSCode, IntelliJ etc. On the keyboard, I've mapped the N physical key to down, H to up, and left is Backspace (and Y which I never use), and right is Space and U. So I don't use the HJKL keys for navigation (well, H but it means Up for me). This leaves the J K L keys available to do their usual things, in Vi — they map to N E I in Colemak (apparently you've noticed this :- )) which I use all the time. > Is the big improvement that it leaves {} in their original place I don't think so. I'd say, it's probably the shortcuts, and that many shortcuts continue working with the left hand only (e.g. using the mouse to select text, then the left hand to CTRL+C +V copy-paste).