9 ms·

> Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow. By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even consider apple products for this reason

by saboot 6y ago

> Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow. By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even consider apple products for this reason.

rvz 6y ago
Exactly. At least Microsoft has courage. Unlike Apple who seems to like to solder everything onto the board, such that to fix the SSD would require an entirely new logic board and a trip to the Apple Store. That alone makes the Surface 4 'look' like a good deal, but at the price of $1000? No thanks and no deal (For now).
- klodolph 6y ago
  It's super weird to see this phrased as "courage". I can understand the desiderata--"I want a user-servicable laptop" is entirely a reasonable position--but framing this narrative as "courageous" is bizarre. It's all a mix of branding and utility.
  - CoolGuySteve 6y ago
    If anything, Apple's environmental impact and their advertising around it is a staggeringly courageous amount of bullshit considering how hard they make it to service, upgrade, and repurpose old devices.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I use my Apple devices for a substantially longer time than the alternative, so I would say I’ve probably consumed less.
      - unishark 6y ago
        They generally have a much better resale value compared to other brands too. People are still buying old macs on ebay.
        fastball 6y ago
        I just listed my old mac on eBay yesterday. It's from 2015. Absolutely would not bother with any other laptop.
  - edaemon 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure they're referencing Apple saying it took "courage" to remove the iPhone's headphone jack.
    - CrazyCatDog 6y ago
      And for my generation: the courage to ditch CD-ROM drives!
  - drusepth 6y ago
    AFAIK, companies "having courage" has been a meme for a few years after Apple said it took great courage (or similar) to remove the headphone jack.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    "Courage", as well as "A sense of pride and accomplishment" means different things now, because some presentations have given those words new life. In the case of "Courage", Apple branded their decision to remove the headphone jack as "courageous". "A sense of pride and accomplishment" is from the Battlefront video games, when marketers were talking about some features that either cost hundreds-of-dollars, or literally hundreds of hours of gameplay to unlock.
    - unishark 6y ago
      What is the new meaning of the word "courage" then? I presume it just means a decision other than the "safe" option. It's a bit melodramatic, perhaps, but not really a new definition. From an individual perspective, someone may have felt they were sticking their necks out and were in danger of hurting their career if the decision led to backlash and a reversal. (Talking about the audio jack change, no idea how making easy-to-maintenance parts is not the safe choice).
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - bobthechef 6y ago
        For one, courage is the mean between cowardice and recklessness. I.e., the pursuit of a good where the risk is rationally justifiable in proportion to the good. Can't comment on whether the decision makers were being courageous or not in any way. Not sure any of us could.
  - crossroadsguy 6y ago
    I was actually considering it a lack of courage: that Apple is so insecure and concerned with its own lack of or zero innovation in last decade or so that it forces its customers to keep buying costly new devices and keep getting costly repairs by means like making devices unrepairable (e.g. literally using a new pin configuration in every other MacBook SSD which are non standard to start with), making devices breakable (glass backs?) etc.
- bsd44 6y ago
  Soldering "everything" is not specific to Apple.
  - NetOpWibby 6y ago
    But boy, the crowd here loves to harp on it though.
- wil421 6y ago
  Really hoping that Jony Ive leaving will have a positive impact in regards to serviceability. Hopefully the blowback for their obsession with thinness was due to Ive.
- swordsmith 6y ago
  Compared to the pricetag of Macbooks, $1000 is a great deal, no?
  - FearlessNebula 6y ago
    The $999 Air will outperform this most likely. Build quality will be similar
    - alien_ 6y ago
      Yeah, the M1 will kill whatever CPU they'll put in this, I wish they had also an ARM version.
      - addicted 6y ago
        I think MS has ARM based Surface laptops. It's just that they're a joke compared to the M1.
      - sagarm 6y ago
        They have AMD options, not just Intel.
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > At least Microsoft has courage. I see what you did there: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-plus-headphone-jack-removal-courage https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-pl...
- crossroadsguy 6y ago
  Are you kidding me? SSD? In 2012, 4-5 days after the purchase of my first and last MacBook Air, they gave me a quote that was half the price of the new MBA when a key cap just popped out. I literally was using it and it popped out. Their reasoning: physical damage + (this is the kicker) in Air there’s no provision to repair the key or key cap, entire lower board/chassis needs to be replaced. Yes just a key cap! I shouted to customer support. It was replaced. I decided I am not paying for another fruit company laptop. (In their defence they tried to pull this off in a country with pretty much no or no accessible consumer protection)
  - Toutouxc 5y ago
    I'm having a hard time believing that. The 2012 Air keyboard is a normal scissor keyboard, there's only the keycap and the scissor plastic thingy beneath it, you can literally repair it with a bit of superglue if you're lucky. Was it Apple who told you this? Or a 3rd party service center? A reseller? What country did they try to pull this off in?
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  >At least Microsoft has courage. Is this the same Microsoft whose original Surface Laptop got the lowest repairability score that iFixit has ever given? >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” Ouch. That’s never happened before. The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
NotPractical 6y ago
Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batteries are consumable and are guaranteed to start wearing down within a few years, whereas the SSD, keyboard, monitor, etc. are likely to last a long time, so it was surprising that they advertised its repairability even with this significant omission. I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that can't be replaced. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(15-inch)+Teardown/127277#s246879 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...
- penagwin 6y ago
  I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design, You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0]. From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries. tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though.... [0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med... [1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
  - deleted 6y ago

by saboot 6y ago

> Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow. By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even consider apple products for this reason.

rvz 6y ago

Exactly. At least Microsoft has courage. Unlike Apple who seems to like to solder everything onto the board, such that to fix the SSD would require an entirely new logic board and a trip to the Apple Store. That alone makes the Surface 4 'look' like a good deal, but at the price of $1000? No thanks and no deal (For now).

klodolph 6y ago
It's super weird to see this phrased as "courage". I can understand the desiderata--"I want a user-servicable laptop" is entirely a reasonable position--but framing this narrative as "courageous" is bizarre. It's all a mix of branding and utility.
- CoolGuySteve 6y ago
  If anything, Apple's environmental impact and their advertising around it is a staggeringly courageous amount of bullshit considering how hard they make it to service, upgrade, and repurpose old devices.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I use my Apple devices for a substantially longer time than the alternative, so I would say I’ve probably consumed less.
    - unishark 6y ago
      They generally have a much better resale value compared to other brands too. People are still buying old macs on ebay.
      - fastball 6y ago
        I just listed my old mac on eBay yesterday. It's from 2015. Absolutely would not bother with any other laptop.
- edaemon 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure they're referencing Apple saying it took "courage" to remove the iPhone's headphone jack.
  - CrazyCatDog 6y ago
    And for my generation: the courage to ditch CD-ROM drives!
- drusepth 6y ago
  AFAIK, companies "having courage" has been a meme for a few years after Apple said it took great courage (or similar) to remove the headphone jack.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  "Courage", as well as "A sense of pride and accomplishment" means different things now, because some presentations have given those words new life. In the case of "Courage", Apple branded their decision to remove the headphone jack as "courageous". "A sense of pride and accomplishment" is from the Battlefront video games, when marketers were talking about some features that either cost hundreds-of-dollars, or literally hundreds of hours of gameplay to unlock.
  - unishark 6y ago
    What is the new meaning of the word "courage" then? I presume it just means a decision other than the "safe" option. It's a bit melodramatic, perhaps, but not really a new definition. From an individual perspective, someone may have felt they were sticking their necks out and were in danger of hurting their career if the decision led to backlash and a reversal. (Talking about the audio jack change, no idea how making easy-to-maintenance parts is not the safe choice).
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - bobthechef 6y ago
      For one, courage is the mean between cowardice and recklessness. I.e., the pursuit of a good where the risk is rationally justifiable in proportion to the good. Can't comment on whether the decision makers were being courageous or not in any way. Not sure any of us could.
- crossroadsguy 6y ago
  I was actually considering it a lack of courage: that Apple is so insecure and concerned with its own lack of or zero innovation in last decade or so that it forces its customers to keep buying costly new devices and keep getting costly repairs by means like making devices unrepairable (e.g. literally using a new pin configuration in every other MacBook SSD which are non standard to start with), making devices breakable (glass backs?) etc.
bsd44 6y ago
Soldering "everything" is not specific to Apple.
- NetOpWibby 6y ago
  But boy, the crowd here loves to harp on it though.
wil421 6y ago
Really hoping that Jony Ive leaving will have a positive impact in regards to serviceability. Hopefully the blowback for their obsession with thinness was due to Ive.
swordsmith 6y ago
Compared to the pricetag of Macbooks, $1000 is a great deal, no?
- FearlessNebula 6y ago
  The $999 Air will outperform this most likely. Build quality will be similar
  - alien_ 6y ago
    Yeah, the M1 will kill whatever CPU they'll put in this, I wish they had also an ARM version.
    - addicted 6y ago
      I think MS has ARM based Surface laptops. It's just that they're a joke compared to the M1.
    - sagarm 6y ago
      They have AMD options, not just Intel.
ValentineC 6y ago
> At least Microsoft has courage. I see what you did there: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-plus-headphone-jack-removal-courage https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-pl...
crossroadsguy 6y ago
Are you kidding me? SSD? In 2012, 4-5 days after the purchase of my first and last MacBook Air, they gave me a quote that was half the price of the new MBA when a key cap just popped out. I literally was using it and it popped out. Their reasoning: physical damage + (this is the kicker) in Air there’s no provision to repair the key or key cap, entire lower board/chassis needs to be replaced. Yes just a key cap! I shouted to customer support. It was replaced. I decided I am not paying for another fruit company laptop. (In their defence they tried to pull this off in a country with pretty much no or no accessible consumer protection)
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  I'm having a hard time believing that. The 2012 Air keyboard is a normal scissor keyboard, there's only the keycap and the scissor plastic thingy beneath it, you can literally repair it with a bit of superglue if you're lucky. Was it Apple who told you this? Or a 3rd party service center? A reseller? What country did they try to pull this off in?
GeekyBear 5y ago
>At least Microsoft has courage. Is this the same Microsoft whose original Surface Laptop got the lowest repairability score that iFixit has ever given? >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” Ouch. That’s never happened before. The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

NotPractical 6y ago

Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batteries are consumable and are guaranteed to start wearing down within a few years, whereas the SSD, keyboard, monitor, etc. are likely to last a long time, so it was surprising that they advertised its repairability even with this significant omission. I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that can't be replaced. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(15-inch)+Teardown/127277#s246879 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...

penagwin 6y ago
I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design, You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0]. From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries. tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though.... [0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med... [1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.medium https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
- deleted 6y ago