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I don't see how the entire FLoC concept can succeed. There is zero incentive for Chromium forks, let alone any other browser vendor, to implement/leave-in this

I don't see how the entire FLoC concept can succeed. There is zero incentive for Chromium forks, let alone any other browser vendor, to implement/leave-in this technology. For other browser vendors, it is zero-effort to not support it. For Chromium forks, implementing it is zero effort but also comes with the same negative gain it would have for other vendors (that end-users are blind to). Unless you consider "more relevant advertisements" a win for users. Although Chrome/Edgium have enough market share to make advertisers happy with this change, I see this entire concept as something that could further erode that given enough negative publicity. Which is fine by me.

KoftaBob 6y ago
I can see advertising networks forming some sort of revenue split agreement with browsers so that they include FLoC.
toyg 6y ago
> I don't see how the entire FLoC concept can succeed. It probably doesn't need to. What is important is that Google can show authorities that they tried to track less, honest guv! It's the market that won't let us!
- noisem4ker 6y ago
  If third party cookies (what FLoC is meant to replace) are indeed going away, Google will be in a tough spot.
luke2m 6y ago
>There is zero incentive for Chromium forks, let alone any other browser vendor, to implement/leave-in this technology. Chrome has a 60-70% market share on its own. Most people don’t even know the difference between “the internet” “the www” and “chrome” So, there is zero incentive for the 30% of non-chrome browsers, but most of the people who don’t use adblockers anyway will be sucked into this.
- type0 6y ago
  Correctemento, for non technical users Chrome is the window to the internet (it used to be Internet Explorer).
  - Aachen 6y ago
    Why'd they go out and download another browser if they don't understand the concept of a browser? Only Android comes with the Google browser as default browser as far as I know. I think whatever the setupper of the computer dictates whatever Internet is, and secondarily the OS vendor if the new user doesn't have a tech friend. I don't think Chrome is somehow == Internet for these people specifically. (Personally I call the shortcut "Internet" so it's consistent across devices and they don't have to recognize Lightning on their phone and Firefox on their laptop.) The Google homepage on the other hand...
    - devenblake 6y ago
      Old folks don't download Chrome, their sucker children do. Those who are too frail to lift the koolaid cup to their mouths shall be aided by their brethren. But also Chrome isn't super hard to install anyway and the dark patterns "help" with the process. Go on Google.com with MS Edge and it'll tell you Chrome will give you a faster, more betterer Internet. It must be pretty convincing to hear that from the de facto arbiter of the world wide web and all you have to do is follow the pretty blue buttons. I was able to install Roblox when I was 10 with less guidance.
      - luke2m 6y ago
        Yeah. If I open Google docs with Gnome Epiphany, I get a message that says IE is no longer supported. IE? And until recently, Vivaldi had all sorts of issues on google websites, even though it’s chromium. https://vivaldi.com/blog/user-agent-changes/ https://vivaldi.com/blog/user-agent-changes/
        unreal6 6y ago
mike_d 6y ago
100% of a browsers revenue comes from advertising. Nobody pays $24.95 for a boxed copy of Netscape Navigator anymore. In negotiating an exclusive search advertising deal, not supporting FLoC will decrease the overall value of the browsers users to the ad network.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Brave runs their own ad network. So does Edge. Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations. I don't think these browsers being less valued on another company's ad network is actually a loss for them.
  - jimmydorry 6y ago
    >Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations I have to assume you wrote this in good faith, however, this is a circuitous way of describing how Mozilla / Firefox makes its money. It comes directly from Google! One can easily imagine a future where Firefox must implement FLoC to continue receiving that money.
    - paulryanrogers 6y ago
      While it has largely come from Google they have at times and in some markets had other search defaults.
      - freebuju 6y ago
        Probably won't be able to afford their top-dollar CEO if Google ever pulled the rug. Mozilla is totally dependent on this search deal.
    - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
      > One can easily imagine a future where Firefox must implement FLoC to continue receiving that money. I can see them getting a good offer from Bing... Does Mozilla have an endowment? I would hope that they’d keep at least $10m in endowment so that they can sustainably continue to fund minimal development to keep the engine and browser up-to-date w.r.t. security and W3C spec changes.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Google will find a way to punish other browsers in the same way they punish browsers like Epiphany or Falkon: by locking users out of Google properties for "security" reasons.
rsj_hn 6y ago
What is the market share of chromium forks? Chrome - not chromium - has 65%, Safari has 20%, then you drop to 3.5% for Edge -- basically people accidentally launching Edge when they try to search for stuff in what used to be the windows start menu -- along with Opera and Firefox. Combined, Edge, Firefox and Opera have about 10% market share, and then far below them are browsers like Brave, with 1% market share, and far below that are browsers like Vivaldi.

KoftaBob 6y ago

I can see advertising networks forming some sort of revenue split agreement with browsers so that they include FLoC.

toyg 6y ago

> I don't see how the entire FLoC concept can succeed. It probably doesn't need to. What is important is that Google can show authorities that they tried to track less, honest guv! It's the market that won't let us!

noisem4ker 6y ago
If third party cookies (what FLoC is meant to replace) are indeed going away, Google will be in a tough spot.

luke2m 6y ago

>There is zero incentive for Chromium forks, let alone any other browser vendor, to implement/leave-in this technology. Chrome has a 60-70% market share on its own. Most people don’t even know the difference between “the internet” “the www” and “chrome” So, there is zero incentive for the 30% of non-chrome browsers, but most of the people who don’t use adblockers anyway will be sucked into this.

type0 6y ago
Correctemento, for non technical users Chrome is the window to the internet (it used to be Internet Explorer).
- Aachen 6y ago
  Why'd they go out and download another browser if they don't understand the concept of a browser? Only Android comes with the Google browser as default browser as far as I know. I think whatever the setupper of the computer dictates whatever Internet is, and secondarily the OS vendor if the new user doesn't have a tech friend. I don't think Chrome is somehow == Internet for these people specifically. (Personally I call the shortcut "Internet" so it's consistent across devices and they don't have to recognize Lightning on their phone and Firefox on their laptop.) The Google homepage on the other hand...
  - devenblake 6y ago
    Old folks don't download Chrome, their sucker children do. Those who are too frail to lift the koolaid cup to their mouths shall be aided by their brethren. But also Chrome isn't super hard to install anyway and the dark patterns "help" with the process. Go on Google.com with MS Edge and it'll tell you Chrome will give you a faster, more betterer Internet. It must be pretty convincing to hear that from the de facto arbiter of the world wide web and all you have to do is follow the pretty blue buttons. I was able to install Roblox when I was 10 with less guidance.
    - luke2m 6y ago
      Yeah. If I open Google docs with Gnome Epiphany, I get a message that says IE is no longer supported. IE? And until recently, Vivaldi had all sorts of issues on google websites, even though it’s chromium. https://vivaldi.com/blog/user-agent-changes/ https://vivaldi.com/blog/user-agent-changes/
      - unreal6 6y ago

mike_d 6y ago

100% of a browsers revenue comes from advertising. Nobody pays $24.95 for a boxed copy of Netscape Navigator anymore. In negotiating an exclusive search advertising deal, not supporting FLoC will decrease the overall value of the browsers users to the ad network.

freeone3000 6y ago
Brave runs their own ad network. So does Edge. Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations. I don't think these browsers being less valued on another company's ad network is actually a loss for them.
- jimmydorry 6y ago
  >Firefox makes their money through search engine placement and donations I have to assume you wrote this in good faith, however, this is a circuitous way of describing how Mozilla / Firefox makes its money. It comes directly from Google! One can easily imagine a future where Firefox must implement FLoC to continue receiving that money.
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    While it has largely come from Google they have at times and in some markets had other search defaults.
    - freebuju 6y ago
      Probably won't be able to afford their top-dollar CEO if Google ever pulled the rug. Mozilla is totally dependent on this search deal.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    > One can easily imagine a future where Firefox must implement FLoC to continue receiving that money. I can see them getting a good offer from Bing... Does Mozilla have an endowment? I would hope that they’d keep at least $10m in endowment so that they can sustainably continue to fund minimal development to keep the engine and browser up-to-date w.r.t. security and W3C spec changes.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Google will find a way to punish other browsers in the same way they punish browsers like Epiphany or Falkon: by locking users out of Google properties for "security" reasons.

rsj_hn 6y ago

What is the market share of chromium forks? Chrome - not chromium - has 65%, Safari has 20%, then you drop to 3.5% for Edge -- basically people accidentally launching Edge when they try to search for stuff in what used to be the windows start menu -- along with Opera and Firefox. Combined, Edge, Firefox and Opera have about 10% market share, and then far below them are browsers like Brave, with 1% market share, and far below that are browsers like Vivaldi.