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So it's not just a scam, it's a scam pretending to be a medical app? The walled garden method has been proven a failure and needs to go urgently.

goonogle 6y ago
It's never been about quality. It's about control.
- viro 6y ago
  how did Nintendo save the video game market?
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    By killing competition and locking down their hardware so we couldn't get more open hardware? That's not "saving" anything but themselves.
    - viro 6y ago
      The market was flooded with trash because of the openness of Atari hardware to the point that it literally killed the market. The only reason it came back was the quality controls put into place by Nintendo. These are historical facts.
- Bud 6y ago
  Let me just give you a hint: you don't even get the faintest chance to have one-millionth of Apple's level of potential "control" without creating many many years of quality, first. I'm surprised you don't see that.
  - 55555 6y ago
    Thanks Bud. But this isn't actually a disagreement with what he said. You're both right.
ehsankia 6y ago
I'm not defending Apple, and I dislike the walled garden model too, but you can't just blindly claim that this is a failure and a non-walled method would do a better job without any evidence.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > without any evidence Do GNU/Linux repositories count? F-Droid?
  - zepto 6y ago
    Obviously not. They simply aren’t a meaningful target for scams the way the iOS store is.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      Yes, they are. Go look how many servers run GNU/Linux.
      - zepto 6y ago
        What does that have to do with a billion consumers of iPhone apps?
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    F-Droid is orders of magnitude smaller, and its users are generally far more advanced, hence not worth trying to scam. The same applies to GNU/Linux too, though there's also other differences there too. Scale is really the issue, Android has 3 billion users, iOS probably has over a billion too.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Looking at the Android model, despite its greater openness than iOS, there is also only one dominant app market with a handful of third part competitors, from well-curated open source repos like F-Droid or XDA Labs to OEM third party ones that no one actually uses or wants to use like the Amazon Appstore or Samsung AppStack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores Really hard to say what would happen in a hypothetical situation where Apple allowed iOS alternative app stores. Maybe the overwhelming majority of users will continue to download only on the App Store, with a tiny minority of power users going to alternatives.
Bud 6y ago
It's been proven a rousing success, actually, and needs to stay, urgently. It's literally the most rousing success of any product in the history of civilization. You might want to re-calibrate your sensors a bit about what is successful.
- hundchenkatze 6y ago
  Yes, it's been successful at creating the illusion that as long as I'm in Apple's garden all is well. Meanwhile extremely profitable scams (for both Apple and the scammer) remain in the store.
  - JoshTko 6y ago
    Average users view the garden as a feature, not a bug - and that's the point. Apple removing complexity that their user's do not understand or need is good product design. HN audience is not Apple's main target audience.
cronix 6y ago
I often wonder what it would be like if the iPhone followed Steve Jobs original announcement and stated vision. There was no mention of an app store, at all. Apps were to be, basically, PWA's using html and javascript with api's to hardware. They called it "web 2.0 + ajax" and claimed if you knew how to write apps using the "latest web standards," you could write apps just as good as apples native apps. If you wanted to update your app, you just update your server hosting the app. Here's the specific portion of the original Jobs iPhone announcement that I'm referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvQ9JNm_qWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvQ9JNm_qWc
- asdff 6y ago
  I think their hand was forced when the first iPhone was jailbroken, and able to install 3rd party apps within six months of release.
- orangecat 6y ago
  claimed if you knew how to write apps using the "latest web standards," you could write apps just as good as apples native apps Which was preposterously false then and still mostly false today.
zepto 6y ago
> So it's not just a scam, it's a scam pretending to be a medical app? The walled garden method has been proven a failure and needs to go urgently. It sounds like you are arguing that more medical scams would be better. App review fails sometimes, but removing it would be worse.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Who said remove them? Access to other app stores could just as easily let you pick one with more control and review instead of less. That should be up to the user. Not you, me or Apple.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > That should be up to the user. Not you, me or Apple. It’s pretty obvious why this is flawed: a lot of people will end up being sold on scammy or privacy invading stores. You’ll be able to blame them for making the wrong choice, but it won’t actually be their fault. It will be the fault of those who prevented Apple from offering a curated environment.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      > It’s pretty obvious why this is flawed: a lot of people will end up being sold on scammy or privacy invading stores. Why? The vast majority will continue to use the App Store. Apple could also manage this situation to both educate users and frame the situation in such a way so that only power users would leave the safety of the App Store to seek out sideloading or alternative stores. The dichotomy of walled garden vs. the Wild West is a false one and a failure of imagination that ignores the possibility of a middle ground. If you believe Apple can truly build a good walled garden, you can also believe that Apple can lift restrictions and allow third party stores in a sensible, well-managed way without sacrificing product quality. > It will be the fault of those who prevented Apple from offering a curated environment. Actually, it would be the fault of the scammers and privacy-invaders in question.
      - 6y ago

goonogle 6y ago

It's never been about quality. It's about control.

viro 6y ago
how did Nintendo save the video game market?
- Daho0n 6y ago
  By killing competition and locking down their hardware so we couldn't get more open hardware? That's not "saving" anything but themselves.
  - viro 6y ago
    The market was flooded with trash because of the openness of Atari hardware to the point that it literally killed the market. The only reason it came back was the quality controls put into place by Nintendo. These are historical facts.
Bud 6y ago
Let me just give you a hint: you don't even get the faintest chance to have one-millionth of Apple's level of potential "control" without creating many many years of quality, first. I'm surprised you don't see that.
- 55555 6y ago
  Thanks Bud. But this isn't actually a disagreement with what he said. You're both right.

ehsankia 6y ago

I'm not defending Apple, and I dislike the walled garden model too, but you can't just blindly claim that this is a failure and a non-walled method would do a better job without any evidence.

fsflover 6y ago
> without any evidence Do GNU/Linux repositories count? F-Droid?
- zepto 6y ago
  Obviously not. They simply aren’t a meaningful target for scams the way the iOS store is.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Yes, they are. Go look how many servers run GNU/Linux.
    - zepto 6y ago
      What does that have to do with a billion consumers of iPhone apps?
- ehsankia 6y ago
  F-Droid is orders of magnitude smaller, and its users are generally far more advanced, hence not worth trying to scam. The same applies to GNU/Linux too, though there's also other differences there too. Scale is really the issue, Android has 3 billion users, iOS probably has over a billion too.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Looking at the Android model, despite its greater openness than iOS, there is also only one dominant app market with a handful of third part competitors, from well-curated open source repos like F-Droid or XDA Labs to OEM third party ones that no one actually uses or wants to use like the Amazon Appstore or Samsung AppStack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores Really hard to say what would happen in a hypothetical situation where Apple allowed iOS alternative app stores. Maybe the overwhelming majority of users will continue to download only on the App Store, with a tiny minority of power users going to alternatives.

Bud 6y ago

It's been proven a rousing success, actually, and needs to stay, urgently. It's literally the most rousing success of any product in the history of civilization. You might want to re-calibrate your sensors a bit about what is successful.

hundchenkatze 6y ago
Yes, it's been successful at creating the illusion that as long as I'm in Apple's garden all is well. Meanwhile extremely profitable scams (for both Apple and the scammer) remain in the store.
- JoshTko 6y ago
  Average users view the garden as a feature, not a bug - and that's the point. Apple removing complexity that their user's do not understand or need is good product design. HN audience is not Apple's main target audience.

cronix 6y ago

I often wonder what it would be like if the iPhone followed Steve Jobs original announcement and stated vision. There was no mention of an app store, at all. Apps were to be, basically, PWA's using html and javascript with api's to hardware. They called it "web 2.0 + ajax" and claimed if you knew how to write apps using the "latest web standards," you could write apps just as good as apples native apps. If you wanted to update your app, you just update your server hosting the app. Here's the specific portion of the original Jobs iPhone announcement that I'm referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvQ9JNm_qWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvQ9JNm_qWc

asdff 6y ago
I think their hand was forced when the first iPhone was jailbroken, and able to install 3rd party apps within six months of release.
orangecat 6y ago
claimed if you knew how to write apps using the "latest web standards," you could write apps just as good as apples native apps Which was preposterously false then and still mostly false today.

zepto 6y ago

> So it's not just a scam, it's a scam pretending to be a medical app? The walled garden method has been proven a failure and needs to go urgently. It sounds like you are arguing that more medical scams would be better. App review fails sometimes, but removing it would be worse.

Daho0n 6y ago
Who said remove them? Access to other app stores could just as easily let you pick one with more control and review instead of less. That should be up to the user. Not you, me or Apple.
- zepto 6y ago
  > That should be up to the user. Not you, me or Apple. It’s pretty obvious why this is flawed: a lot of people will end up being sold on scammy or privacy invading stores. You’ll be able to blame them for making the wrong choice, but it won’t actually be their fault. It will be the fault of those who prevented Apple from offering a curated environment.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    > It’s pretty obvious why this is flawed: a lot of people will end up being sold on scammy or privacy invading stores. Why? The vast majority will continue to use the App Store. Apple could also manage this situation to both educate users and frame the situation in such a way so that only power users would leave the safety of the App Store to seek out sideloading or alternative stores. The dichotomy of walled garden vs. the Wild West is a false one and a failure of imagination that ignores the possibility of a middle ground. If you believe Apple can truly build a good walled garden, you can also believe that Apple can lift restrictions and allow third party stores in a sensible, well-managed way without sacrificing product quality. > It will be the fault of those who prevented Apple from offering a curated environment. Actually, it would be the fault of the scammers and privacy-invaders in question.
    - 6y ago