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How many Mainland Chinese do you actually know? Have you talked to them? My in-laws are all Mainland Chinese. They have access to safe and good tap water, eith

by k_sze 6y ago

How many Mainland Chinese do you actually know? Have you talked to them? My in-laws are all Mainland Chinese. They have access to safe and good tap water, either back in their home town literally in the mountains or in a big city like Wuhan. Air quality is not great, I'll give you that. But it's also not the worst, at least not in every measure. E.g. many big cities in China had lower NO2 levels than other big cities in other country, in 2016, and those numbers come from NASA: https://airquality.gsfc.nasa.gov/no2/world/east-asia/wuhan https://airquality.gsfc.nasa.gov/no2/world/east-asia/wuhan The majority of the people in China don't care about the kind of freedom you talk about. As a nation, they seem to have a very singular goal: follow the Party, make progress, and beat the rest of the world. China is also attracting lots of young people from other parts of the world. There are quite a few twitter accounts of Laowais who seem to enjoy life in China because they've seen past the values of the West.

skywal_l 6y ago
> they've seen past the values of the West Interesting. What would you consider are the values of the West? And, in your opinion, what are the values of the Chinese society? And don't you think there are overlaps and so, which one? No retorical questions, I am truly interesting in your answer.
- k_sze 6y ago
  Or maybe I should put it another way: they've seen past the priorities of values of the West. I think that, as civilisations, we all aspire to mostly the same values. We just have very different priorities. For the Chinese, it's economic progress over freedom. (In fact, they are mostly free to say whatever they want as long as they don't try to rally and secede or topple the government. As a point of anecdatum, I discuss politics with my brother-in-law over WeChat. We don't always agree with the official narrative. Neither of us has been censored or arrested.)
  - skywal_l 6y ago
    > For the Chinese, it's economic progress over freedom. And do you think that this is the case because of some sort of permanence in chinese culture or is it just a transient artefact of the economic situation? Is Chinese middle class really a known variable? If you look at the west, the current doxa was not always focused on human rights and individual freedom. The same drive to economic progress has actually dominated much of its history since the renaissance and it can be argued that it was the main engine to political progress. My grand parent main political goal was mainly to ensure they would have enough to go by once they get old. Don't you think that, as chinese middle class's economic situation evolves, its priority might not also change? I think what's going to happen in china in the next 20 years are going to have as much impact on the world than the colonization of the new world by europeans 500 years ago. And chinese middle class will be at the center of it. > We don't always agree with the official narrative. Neither of us has been censored or arrested.) And if the chinese government were to do something that you consider truly horrible, would you consider that expressing your opinion openly and publicly would be considered "to rally and secede"? Again I am not trying to trigger you, I am just trying to understand a collective state of mind on which, I believed, we are poorly informed in the west.
- rkuo1234 6y ago
  I am very much agree k_sze's comments, I will add some of mine. Chinese's group (family/school/party/country) feeling is stronger/higher priority than a individual. This is recognized and accepted without any government's push. Although most of Chinese is atheist, good portion of common religious believes are considered as a philosophy and is built in social normal, everyone expect to follow. They have less bias toward other ethnic groups, most of time they enjoy each others' difference through each other's food. They very much believe nothing is impossible to some degree of foolish, this leads them to take some long term projects that could not justified in normal ROI alone. Professionally, they respect farmer and scholars higher than politicians and business people, this does not stop them wanting be rich. I think there are many overlaps with old West value.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
> The majority of the people in China don't care about the kind of freedom you talk about. As a nation, they seem to have a very singular goal: follow the Party, make progress, and beat the rest of the world. Sure. The people of Russia didn't care about freedom and just wanted to follow the Party, too. Until they were given the chance, and it turned out that they actually wanted freedom and didn't give a rip about following the Party, because the Party was denying them the freedom they wanted, and was feeding them a perpetual diet of lies in the process. And despite all the lies, they could tell that it was lies, and that it wasn't freedom. Now, it didn't work out in Russia. They didn't wind up at freedom. They wound up back with lies. But the point is, however much it looked in Soviet years as though everyone wanted to follow the Party, that was just a facade. Are the Chinese so different? Do they really not care about freedom? Do they really in their hearts want to follow the Party? Or can they tell that it's all propaganda, and they just are going along on the surface? The one difference is that China has delivered a fair amount of prosperity to a lot of people, which the Soviet system didn't. That might buy the Party in China another generation. But then the next generation sees that as the baseline. Can the Party continue to deliver improved prosperity? And will that be enough to keep people from wanting actual freedom?

by k_sze 6y ago

skywal_l 6y ago

> they've seen past the values of the West Interesting. What would you consider are the values of the West? And, in your opinion, what are the values of the Chinese society? And don't you think there are overlaps and so, which one? No retorical questions, I am truly interesting in your answer.

k_sze 6y ago
Or maybe I should put it another way: they've seen past the priorities of values of the West. I think that, as civilisations, we all aspire to mostly the same values. We just have very different priorities. For the Chinese, it's economic progress over freedom. (In fact, they are mostly free to say whatever they want as long as they don't try to rally and secede or topple the government. As a point of anecdatum, I discuss politics with my brother-in-law over WeChat. We don't always agree with the official narrative. Neither of us has been censored or arrested.)
- skywal_l 6y ago
  > For the Chinese, it's economic progress over freedom. And do you think that this is the case because of some sort of permanence in chinese culture or is it just a transient artefact of the economic situation? Is Chinese middle class really a known variable? If you look at the west, the current doxa was not always focused on human rights and individual freedom. The same drive to economic progress has actually dominated much of its history since the renaissance and it can be argued that it was the main engine to political progress. My grand parent main political goal was mainly to ensure they would have enough to go by once they get old. Don't you think that, as chinese middle class's economic situation evolves, its priority might not also change? I think what's going to happen in china in the next 20 years are going to have as much impact on the world than the colonization of the new world by europeans 500 years ago. And chinese middle class will be at the center of it. > We don't always agree with the official narrative. Neither of us has been censored or arrested.) And if the chinese government were to do something that you consider truly horrible, would you consider that expressing your opinion openly and publicly would be considered "to rally and secede"? Again I am not trying to trigger you, I am just trying to understand a collective state of mind on which, I believed, we are poorly informed in the west.
rkuo1234 6y ago
I am very much agree k_sze's comments, I will add some of mine. Chinese's group (family/school/party/country) feeling is stronger/higher priority than a individual. This is recognized and accepted without any government's push. Although most of Chinese is atheist, good portion of common religious believes are considered as a philosophy and is built in social normal, everyone expect to follow. They have less bias toward other ethnic groups, most of time they enjoy each others' difference through each other's food. They very much believe nothing is impossible to some degree of foolish, this leads them to take some long term projects that could not justified in normal ROI alone. Professionally, they respect farmer and scholars higher than politicians and business people, this does not stop them wanting be rich. I think there are many overlaps with old West value.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

> The majority of the people in China don't care about the kind of freedom you talk about. As a nation, they seem to have a very singular goal: follow the Party, make progress, and beat the rest of the world. Sure. The people of Russia didn't care about freedom and just wanted to follow the Party, too. Until they were given the chance, and it turned out that they actually wanted freedom and didn't give a rip about following the Party, because the Party was denying them the freedom they wanted, and was feeding them a perpetual diet of lies in the process. And despite all the lies, they could tell that it was lies, and that it wasn't freedom. Now, it didn't work out in Russia. They didn't wind up at freedom. They wound up back with lies. But the point is, however much it looked in Soviet years as though everyone wanted to follow the Party, that was just a facade. Are the Chinese so different? Do they really not care about freedom? Do they really in their hearts want to follow the Party? Or can they tell that it's all propaganda, and they just are going along on the surface? The one difference is that China has delivered a fair amount of prosperity to a lot of people, which the Soviet system didn't. That might buy the Party in China another generation. But then the next generation sees that as the baseline. Can the Party continue to deliver improved prosperity? And will that be enough to keep people from wanting actual freedom?