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I don’t imagine badly. I’d love to be able to have a Union where I can tell my manager not to put me on on-call rotations with no compensation, but I have no ba

I don’t imagine badly. I’d love to be able to have a Union where I can tell my manager not to put me on on-call rotations with no compensation, but I have no bargaining power as an individual. I’m sure other programmers have a whole slew of things that would be great, too, that can only happen if everyone works together to negotiate for it.

busterarm 6y ago
in collective bargaining you ALSO have no bargaining power as an individual. That means you can't go to your bosses and say "I think I'm worth this much (more) money". You also can't leave your job to get paid that much, because seniority at your new company means you will start at lower pay than you currently have.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  Sure you can. Usually there’s a combo of rank+time. I know, I’ve done it. Collective bargaining is usually around work rules and core issues. No non-VP+ individual has the ability to effectively bargain re health insurance. All companies have pay scales. Even massive unionized bureaucracies like the Federal government have the ability to compensate critical employees or critical skills. (Although your definition of critical may not align with the entity)
  - busterarm 6y ago
    I've been in three different unions before I landed in this career. Salary increases were fixed by time and position. Position was always based on seniority. No exceptions. You could try to transfer locations within the same company to try and get better roles (which is how most people got promotions, aside from waiting for people to die). If you changed companies though you started at the bottom, guaranteed, because if you get moved ahead of people in the new company it creates an utter shitstorm. Management at the new job basically has to hate their employees and themselves to do such a thing.
- freedomben 6y ago
  This is the point that seems so often missed. I was union before I joined tech, and unions are poison to somebody who wants to represent themselves. They completely remove the option. It often forces people into either management or just learn to be happy inside the system.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    It bothers me the ignorance of people who immediately think that having a union means "I'm going to get what I want." No. You're going to get what the union wants. People complain endlessly about HOAs and their behavior. Being in a union is the same shit! By the way, in my professional adult life, there has never been a situation where there was something reasonable that I wanted in my employment contract and didn't get it. Just ask! I wonder how many people out there want unions and are also the kinds of people who don't ask for things they need. And if you want to use unions to get you things that are _unreasonable_ that's bad for everyone.
    - deleted 6y ago
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umvi 6y ago
> but I have no bargaining power as an individual What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company"
- randoramax 6y ago
  > What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company" Says the dude without kids and a mortgage who can afford a couple of months without a salary :)
  - umvi 6y ago
    Why does that matter? If you don't like your current job, start looking around until you have a new offer in hand. That new offer in hand is now your leverage ("bargaining power") if you really like your current company. Otherwise if they "call your bluff" you still have a job.
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      Living life by ultimatum is pretty lame. End of the day, requiring such a high friction approach to addressing basic issues sets up incentives to take no action.
      - toomuchredbull 6y ago
        Lame living by someone else's ultimatum also. If you had a union you'd have to go on strike for shit you don't necessarily care about and you would have to wait for somebody to age out to get off of pager duty. It's outsourcing responsibility of your life to someone else.
        52-6F-62 6y ago
        In the timeless words of Bob Dylan, "gotta serve somebody"
- bitmunk 6y ago
peytn 6y ago
Are you in a salaried role with pager duty? Are your responsibilities different from what was advertised? It sounds like you’re okay with pager duty—have you tried asking for an increase in comp? You can probably fix your current plight without invoking a union...
chasd00 6y ago
with a union, at best, you'll submit a ticket to your rep. Like most tickets, it will likely never see the light of day. btw, would you be prepared to strike if negotiations don't go well? That's the only tool a union has to keep the other side at the bargaining table. heh I doubt you can charge PTO to a strike so i wouldn't expect a paycheck.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Careful, you may end up on those same rotas all the more when the union rep takes himself off and let's Frank off because they're drinking buddies...
- busterarm 6y ago
  Having been in unions before, I can confirm that this is exactly what happens. At least Frank is fucked if their relationship ever sours though. Fucking Frank. Everyone wants to see that guy get injured.

busterarm 6y ago

in collective bargaining you ALSO have no bargaining power as an individual. That means you can't go to your bosses and say "I think I'm worth this much (more) money". You also can't leave your job to get paid that much, because seniority at your new company means you will start at lower pay than you currently have.

Spooky23 6y ago
Sure you can. Usually there’s a combo of rank+time. I know, I’ve done it. Collective bargaining is usually around work rules and core issues. No non-VP+ individual has the ability to effectively bargain re health insurance. All companies have pay scales. Even massive unionized bureaucracies like the Federal government have the ability to compensate critical employees or critical skills. (Although your definition of critical may not align with the entity)
- busterarm 6y ago
  I've been in three different unions before I landed in this career. Salary increases were fixed by time and position. Position was always based on seniority. No exceptions. You could try to transfer locations within the same company to try and get better roles (which is how most people got promotions, aside from waiting for people to die). If you changed companies though you started at the bottom, guaranteed, because if you get moved ahead of people in the new company it creates an utter shitstorm. Management at the new job basically has to hate their employees and themselves to do such a thing.
freedomben 6y ago
This is the point that seems so often missed. I was union before I joined tech, and unions are poison to somebody who wants to represent themselves. They completely remove the option. It often forces people into either management or just learn to be happy inside the system.
- busterarm 6y ago
  It bothers me the ignorance of people who immediately think that having a union means "I'm going to get what I want." No. You're going to get what the union wants. People complain endlessly about HOAs and their behavior. Being in a union is the same shit! By the way, in my professional adult life, there has never been a situation where there was something reasonable that I wanted in my employment contract and didn't get it. Just ask! I wonder how many people out there want unions and are also the kinds of people who don't ask for things they need. And if you want to use unions to get you things that are _unreasonable_ that's bad for everyone.
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deleted 6y ago
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umvi 6y ago

> but I have no bargaining power as an individual What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company"

randoramax 6y ago
> What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company" Says the dude without kids and a mortgage who can afford a couple of months without a salary :)
- umvi 6y ago
  Why does that matter? If you don't like your current job, start looking around until you have a new offer in hand. That new offer in hand is now your leverage ("bargaining power") if you really like your current company. Otherwise if they "call your bluff" you still have a job.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    Living life by ultimatum is pretty lame. End of the day, requiring such a high friction approach to addressing basic issues sets up incentives to take no action.
    - toomuchredbull 6y ago
      Lame living by someone else's ultimatum also. If you had a union you'd have to go on strike for shit you don't necessarily care about and you would have to wait for somebody to age out to get off of pager duty. It's outsourcing responsibility of your life to someone else.
      - 52-6F-62 6y ago
        In the timeless words of Bob Dylan, "gotta serve somebody"
bitmunk 6y ago

peytn 6y ago

Are you in a salaried role with pager duty? Are your responsibilities different from what was advertised? It sounds like you’re okay with pager duty—have you tried asking for an increase in comp? You can probably fix your current plight without invoking a union...

chasd00 6y ago

with a union, at best, you'll submit a ticket to your rep. Like most tickets, it will likely never see the light of day. btw, would you be prepared to strike if negotiations don't go well? That's the only tool a union has to keep the other side at the bargaining table. heh I doubt you can charge PTO to a strike so i wouldn't expect a paycheck.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Careful, you may end up on those same rotas all the more when the union rep takes himself off and let's Frank off because they're drinking buddies...

busterarm 6y ago
Having been in unions before, I can confirm that this is exactly what happens. At least Frank is fucked if their relationship ever sours though. Fucking Frank. Everyone wants to see that guy get injured.