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That's exactly the dark pattern is - the convoluted pricing and terms. Also, not everybody is a uckin lawyer, that's another problem. The customer has already

That's exactly the dark pattern is - the convoluted pricing and terms. Also, not everybody is a uckin lawyer, that's another problem. The customer has already been paying more than they'd have paid if they went for a long duration contract.

paxys 6y ago
You are stretching the definition of convoluted. Offering discounts for signing a longer-term contract is standard practice in every industry. Don't need to be a lawyer to figure that out.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  There is no reason to give billion dollar companies with a staff of thousands of full time workers which have meetings in which professional designers meet with professional decision makers to approve of each step in a web store before it goes live the benefit of the doubt instead of the customer who spends 2 minutes in a web form. If it looks dishonest it probably is. On this page https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html I see an entry for all apps. The description is like so. All Apps US$52.99/mo It has a big old buy now option that you are obviously supposed to click in place of the small text that says see plan and pricing details. When you click buy now you are taken to what ought to be familiar to most people as a shopping cart pattern. On the entire left side is just a spot to put your email and a button designed to draw your attention below it that says continue to payment. Most people are going to read it from top down and not glance much at the item they have put in their cart. If they do they may notice a drop down in the description of the item in their cart with black on grey text that says annual plan, paid monthly in the description of the item you are already buying where people are much less likely to attend to this detail. If they click the drop down they may note the options but more likely we are already passed this screen and onto the next one. If you put a nonsense email in and click proceed to payment you will notice, you know or not, text in 6 point font at the bottom. In light text that on a 24" 1080p screen is 9 pixels high or about 0.098 inches tall > By clicking "Agree and subscribe," you agree In bold same size it says > You will be charged US$52.99 (plus tax) monthly and at the end of your one-year term, your subscription will automatically renew monthly until you cancel (price subject to change). No annual commitment required after the first year. Cancel anytime via Adobe Account or Customer Support. Now again in light text it says > Cancel before Apr 26, 2021 to get a full refund and avoid a fee If you had no economic interest and your job was to be as informative as possible you would allow the user to click the product which would take you to a product page wherein it would list 3 options with separate descriptions where you would add the desired item to the cart. This means that you would affirmatively choose that option instead of having the default in a drop down positioned so many wouldn't attend to it at all and you wouldn't mention the fee in tiny font on the payment screen. It would be fully specified in body text with a check box saying something to the effect. I acknowledge that if I cancel before the one year term I will be charged a fee of up to n dollars. If you check it you would be able to add the item to your cart and pay for it secure in that everyone knew what they are buying. It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business.
  - bredren 6y ago
    > It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business. I think it is a bit more nuanced than that. Business isn’t purely about making money, it is about exchange of value. It doesn’t work like that because people don’t think Adobe products provide the value Adobe wants to charge for. If adobe credibly believed that their annual plan for their products was worth what they’re charging, they would not hide the pricing. So “it doesn’t work like this because deceiving people is good for” _accumulating capital_. This is happening a lot. The Burning Man organization used a dark pattern to attempt to withhold ticket refunds last year. The burning man org made refunds something you had to request, then sign in, and opt out again in or lose all of it. They increased the minimum amount you could donate during the refund period and said the money was to “save” the event. Then they turned around and applied for the max PPP loans. [1] https://www.burn.life/blog/interview-with-the-ceo-of-burning-man-marian-goodell https://www.burn.life/blog/interview-with-the-ceo-of-burning... WinRed, a political organization in support of the former president, used a series of increasingly deceptive interface patterns that have provably awful publicly disclosed refund rates. They also used increasingly deceptive interface methods and emotional statements to sell the idea. [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donatio... If anything Adobe should be regarded for only using deceptive financial practices and not trying to sell some sad story if we don’t give it to them.
  - DominikPeters 6y ago
    Even if you bother to read the small print, it appears to be written to be deliberately misleading. Instead of positively saying that one enters an annual commitment, it only says that there is "No annual commitment required after the first year". "Cancel anytime" suggests you can stop your contract, not that you have the option to pre-pay the remaining months and forfeit your access.
    - dmingod666 6y ago
      Correct, it's misleading if you chose to ignore the words "after the first year".
- p1necone 6y ago
  That's not what they're doing though - they're advertising a monthly price with no mention that it's actually a discounted price only available if you sign up for > 1 month. Only explaining that in fine print once you get further along in the sign up process is the convoluted/dark pattern bit here.

paxys 6y ago

You are stretching the definition of convoluted. Offering discounts for signing a longer-term contract is standard practice in every industry. Don't need to be a lawyer to figure that out.

michaelmrose 6y ago
There is no reason to give billion dollar companies with a staff of thousands of full time workers which have meetings in which professional designers meet with professional decision makers to approve of each step in a web store before it goes live the benefit of the doubt instead of the customer who spends 2 minutes in a web form. If it looks dishonest it probably is. On this page https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html I see an entry for all apps. The description is like so. All Apps US$52.99/mo It has a big old buy now option that you are obviously supposed to click in place of the small text that says see plan and pricing details. When you click buy now you are taken to what ought to be familiar to most people as a shopping cart pattern. On the entire left side is just a spot to put your email and a button designed to draw your attention below it that says continue to payment. Most people are going to read it from top down and not glance much at the item they have put in their cart. If they do they may notice a drop down in the description of the item in their cart with black on grey text that says annual plan, paid monthly in the description of the item you are already buying where people are much less likely to attend to this detail. If they click the drop down they may note the options but more likely we are already passed this screen and onto the next one. If you put a nonsense email in and click proceed to payment you will notice, you know or not, text in 6 point font at the bottom. In light text that on a 24" 1080p screen is 9 pixels high or about 0.098 inches tall > By clicking "Agree and subscribe," you agree In bold same size it says > You will be charged US$52.99 (plus tax) monthly and at the end of your one-year term, your subscription will automatically renew monthly until you cancel (price subject to change). No annual commitment required after the first year. Cancel anytime via Adobe Account or Customer Support. Now again in light text it says > Cancel before Apr 26, 2021 to get a full refund and avoid a fee If you had no economic interest and your job was to be as informative as possible you would allow the user to click the product which would take you to a product page wherein it would list 3 options with separate descriptions where you would add the desired item to the cart. This means that you would affirmatively choose that option instead of having the default in a drop down positioned so many wouldn't attend to it at all and you wouldn't mention the fee in tiny font on the payment screen. It would be fully specified in body text with a check box saying something to the effect. I acknowledge that if I cancel before the one year term I will be charged a fee of up to n dollars. If you check it you would be able to add the item to your cart and pay for it secure in that everyone knew what they are buying. It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business.
- bredren 6y ago
  > It doesn't work like this because deceiving people is good for business. I think it is a bit more nuanced than that. Business isn’t purely about making money, it is about exchange of value. It doesn’t work like that because people don’t think Adobe products provide the value Adobe wants to charge for. If adobe credibly believed that their annual plan for their products was worth what they’re charging, they would not hide the pricing. So “it doesn’t work like this because deceiving people is good for” _accumulating capital_. This is happening a lot. The Burning Man organization used a dark pattern to attempt to withhold ticket refunds last year. The burning man org made refunds something you had to request, then sign in, and opt out again in or lose all of it. They increased the minimum amount you could donate during the refund period and said the money was to “save” the event. Then they turned around and applied for the max PPP loans. [1] https://www.burn.life/blog/interview-with-the-ceo-of-burning-man-marian-goodell https://www.burn.life/blog/interview-with-the-ceo-of-burning... WinRed, a political organization in support of the former president, used a series of increasingly deceptive interface patterns that have provably awful publicly disclosed refund rates. They also used increasingly deceptive interface methods and emotional statements to sell the idea. [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donatio... If anything Adobe should be regarded for only using deceptive financial practices and not trying to sell some sad story if we don’t give it to them.
- DominikPeters 6y ago
  Even if you bother to read the small print, it appears to be written to be deliberately misleading. Instead of positively saying that one enters an annual commitment, it only says that there is "No annual commitment required after the first year". "Cancel anytime" suggests you can stop your contract, not that you have the option to pre-pay the remaining months and forfeit your access.
  - dmingod666 6y ago
    Correct, it's misleading if you chose to ignore the words "after the first year".
p1necone 6y ago
That's not what they're doing though - they're advertising a monthly price with no mention that it's actually a discounted price only available if you sign up for > 1 month. Only explaining that in fine print once you get further along in the sign up process is the convoluted/dark pattern bit here.