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This is disingenuous at best, and fraudulent at worst - and I know ACCC in Australia will take a very dim view. Take the main page for instance, the one you lin

This is disingenuous at best, and fraudulent at worst - and I know ACCC in Australia will take a very dim view. Take the main page for instance, the one you linked - it lists monthly prices. No mention whatsoever of "annual pricing paid monthly" - it's JUST monthly mentioned. Pic: https://imgur.com/sZPfFDI https://imgur.com/sZPfFDI When you click "See plans and pricing details" it gives you the Annual monthly and ACTUAL monthly prices. Pic: https://imgur.com/gxokkST https://imgur.com/gxokkST If you click Buy Now the ACTUAL monthly price is hidden from view in a drop-down. Pic: https://imgur.com/l05UZra https://imgur.com/l05UZra I don't know a claims court in the OECD that would rule in favour of Adobe here. Misrepresenting the monthly price up-front is false advertising. This is a dark pattern, Adobe should be shamed.

greggman3 6y ago
When you click the "buy" button it's made clear https://imgur.com/uUqd9ZY https://imgur.com/uUqd9ZY Reminds me of car advertising. They don't show the full price of the lease. They show the monthly payments
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  It says one thing in the screen where you put the item effectively in your cart and another in the description of the item in your cart wherein its designed for people's eyeballs to hit the continue to payment before they attend to the fact that it says something different in the description of the item IN the cart. It's beautifully criminal in design.
- anilakar 6y ago
  Which, BTW, is illegal under most sane consumer protection laws, where the full price of the contract must always be shown. No annual price, no annual contract. Simple.
  - medlyyy 6y ago
    At the very least, if you are showing the instalment price, you have to show the number of instalments, and the fact that it is an instalment rather than a pay-as-you-go subscription. You could certainly argue that describing the plan as $x paid monthly is outright false, when it should be "12 monthly instalments of $x".
legostormtroopr 6y ago
How is this a dark pattern? This seems pretty transparent to me. You click see more details, it lists all 3 options, you hit next and it keeps the 3 options in a condensed list, but respects your selection.
- dorkwood 6y ago
  "See more details" isn't the primary call to action --"buy now" is. If you click "buy now", you're taken to a page that doesn't show the three options side-by-side, and if you're not paying attention you could miss the new "annual plan" text that's been added.
  - fastball 6y ago
    I'm firmly in the "if you don't pay attention when purchasing something it's your own damn fault" camp.
    - sellyme 6y ago
      I'm firmly in the "If your advertising materials are systematically designed to trick people, you should be in gaol" camp. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive viewpoints.
    - dorkwood 6y ago
      How much deception are you ok with before it becomes an issue? Would it be ok if the second screen was also missing the "annual plan" text, and it only became visible on the payment-confirmation screen? What if was only visible in the fine print at the bottom of the page? Where do you draw the line?
paxys 6y ago
To me this is a very intuitive presentation of pricing, so not sure what you are referring to as a dark pattern. There are three clearly laid-out options: 1. No contract, pay monthly 2. Annual contract, pay monthly (cheaper than 1) 3. Annual contract, pay in one go (cheaper than 1 & 2) You pick one of the three options and check out. Where exactly is the confusion?
- deathanatos 6y ago
  The first screenshot in the comment you're replying to says the price is "$52.99/mo". A reasonable person would look at that and conclude that if they purchased the product for 1 month, they would pay $52.99. But it seems (from the other, subsequent screenshots) that the actual cost Adobe would charge is $635.88. (That $52.99/mo, for a year.) It is only on subsequent screens that the bait and switch becomes visible. A customer should not have to pay attention at each screen to ensure such a bait and switch does not occur.
  - sk5t 6y ago
    Automobile leases, apartments, and the like are listed with monthly rates, but your commitment to pay is longer than one month. What's the difference?
    - chillfox 6y ago
      Mobile phone plans and car payments all display the total price here in Australia as well as the monthly payments.
    - dunnevens 6y ago
      When you lease an apartment or a car, the monthly rate stated is usually the actual month-to-month cost. They don't demand a full year in advance to get the stated cost, or increase the monthly cost because you didn't pay for a year upfront. That's why this pricing feels dishonest, even if it's technically true. Other companies handle it much more fairly. If you want to subscribe to World of Warcraft, Blizzard makes it clear that it's $15 per month. With discounts offered if you pay for 6 months at a time. That type of pricing feels honest, with a reward for paying for multiple months. Makes the customer feel better than Adobe's presentation, even though it's essentially the same type of pricing scheme as Adobe.
csomar 6y ago
There is a commitment drop-down that shows different prices for the same product. I think it's pretty clear. I hate dark patterns than any other guy on HN, but this is not even close.
chillfox 6y ago
So are you going to report them to the ACCC? They are also advertising their Lightroom cloud storage as a backup, but it does not meet the Macquarie Dictionary (Australian English) definition for backup.
- Mandatum 6y ago
  I would if I was their customer.
  - chillfox 6y ago
    I don't think you have to be a customer to put in a complaint about their advertising.
DominikPeters 6y ago
You're getting lots of replies from (I presume) Americans, who are used to much scammier business behavior than what I know from Germany and you describe in Australia. One related example is the pervasive practice in America of displaying a price without fees (like "resort fees" for hotels that can be +50%) and of course taxes, with the actual price only becoming apparent after additional effort is invested in the checkout process.
- Mandatum 6y ago
  True, my views are non-American. For example when I go to a convenience store, I pay the price listed on the item. I don't have to do math in my head that's +x% sales or state tax. That type of practice just isn't acceptable anywhere else.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    > I don't have to do math in my head that's +x% sales or state tax. That type of practice just isn't acceptable anywhere else. Oblig: sales/retail taxes in the US vary city-by-city. While just like the rest of the world: US companies put their MSRP on products - but it would be unfair to expect retailers to charge the MSRP and eat the tax themselves because some areas have zero sales tax but others have a 10% tax. That's bigger than the profit-margin on many items sold at retail - and the simplest solution is just to have everything understand that the price on a box is the pre-local-tax price. And everyone (most people? or just most people on HN...) know roughly what their local sales tax rates are anyway (mine's around 9%) and as everyone pays by card having exact change isn't an issue.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > but it would be unfair to expect retailers to charge the MSRP and eat the tax themselves because some areas have zero sales tax but others have a 10% tax. I disagree. If you want to sell something to a market then you should tailor your product to that market. That means doing some basic research about what the local taxes and laws are.
dmingod666 6y ago
Look, if the "Annual" in the name is not clue enough for the person. They are just paying tax for not being able to read. This is not 75th page on the user agreement, it's the first word in the product name he is trying to buy.
hoektoe 6y ago
I also initially thought I was in the wrong with the monthly but yearly. Thanks for screenshots
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
maccard 6y ago
I'm not an american apologist by any means, and it is a dark pattern, but it is very clear at point of payment what you're paying, and what period it's for. The drop-down unexpanded clearly says "Annual Plan, paid monthly". Yes it's a bait and switch, and adobe deserve to be called out on the bait and switch but thats not what this thread is about, it's about someone signing up to (clear at time of purchase) annual billing and wanting to cancel early.

greggman3 6y ago

When you click the "buy" button it's made clear https://imgur.com/uUqd9ZY https://imgur.com/uUqd9ZY Reminds me of car advertising. They don't show the full price of the lease. They show the monthly payments

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
michaelmrose 6y ago
It says one thing in the screen where you put the item effectively in your cart and another in the description of the item in your cart wherein its designed for people's eyeballs to hit the continue to payment before they attend to the fact that it says something different in the description of the item IN the cart. It's beautifully criminal in design.
anilakar 6y ago
Which, BTW, is illegal under most sane consumer protection laws, where the full price of the contract must always be shown. No annual price, no annual contract. Simple.
- medlyyy 6y ago
  At the very least, if you are showing the instalment price, you have to show the number of instalments, and the fact that it is an instalment rather than a pay-as-you-go subscription. You could certainly argue that describing the plan as $x paid monthly is outright false, when it should be "12 monthly instalments of $x".

legostormtroopr 6y ago

How is this a dark pattern? This seems pretty transparent to me. You click see more details, it lists all 3 options, you hit next and it keeps the 3 options in a condensed list, but respects your selection.

dorkwood 6y ago
"See more details" isn't the primary call to action --"buy now" is. If you click "buy now", you're taken to a page that doesn't show the three options side-by-side, and if you're not paying attention you could miss the new "annual plan" text that's been added.
- fastball 6y ago
  I'm firmly in the "if you don't pay attention when purchasing something it's your own damn fault" camp.
  - sellyme 6y ago
    I'm firmly in the "If your advertising materials are systematically designed to trick people, you should be in gaol" camp. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive viewpoints.
  - dorkwood 6y ago
    How much deception are you ok with before it becomes an issue? Would it be ok if the second screen was also missing the "annual plan" text, and it only became visible on the payment-confirmation screen? What if was only visible in the fine print at the bottom of the page? Where do you draw the line?

paxys 6y ago

To me this is a very intuitive presentation of pricing, so not sure what you are referring to as a dark pattern. There are three clearly laid-out options: 1. No contract, pay monthly 2. Annual contract, pay monthly (cheaper than 1) 3. Annual contract, pay in one go (cheaper than 1 & 2) You pick one of the three options and check out. Where exactly is the confusion?

deathanatos 6y ago
The first screenshot in the comment you're replying to says the price is "$52.99/mo". A reasonable person would look at that and conclude that if they purchased the product for 1 month, they would pay $52.99. But it seems (from the other, subsequent screenshots) that the actual cost Adobe would charge is $635.88. (That $52.99/mo, for a year.) It is only on subsequent screens that the bait and switch becomes visible. A customer should not have to pay attention at each screen to ensure such a bait and switch does not occur.
- sk5t 6y ago
  Automobile leases, apartments, and the like are listed with monthly rates, but your commitment to pay is longer than one month. What's the difference?
  - chillfox 6y ago
    Mobile phone plans and car payments all display the total price here in Australia as well as the monthly payments.
  - dunnevens 6y ago
    When you lease an apartment or a car, the monthly rate stated is usually the actual month-to-month cost. They don't demand a full year in advance to get the stated cost, or increase the monthly cost because you didn't pay for a year upfront. That's why this pricing feels dishonest, even if it's technically true. Other companies handle it much more fairly. If you want to subscribe to World of Warcraft, Blizzard makes it clear that it's $15 per month. With discounts offered if you pay for 6 months at a time. That type of pricing feels honest, with a reward for paying for multiple months. Makes the customer feel better than Adobe's presentation, even though it's essentially the same type of pricing scheme as Adobe.

csomar 6y ago

There is a commitment drop-down that shows different prices for the same product. I think it's pretty clear. I hate dark patterns than any other guy on HN, but this is not even close.

chillfox 6y ago

So are you going to report them to the ACCC? They are also advertising their Lightroom cloud storage as a backup, but it does not meet the Macquarie Dictionary (Australian English) definition for backup.

Mandatum 6y ago
I would if I was their customer.
- chillfox 6y ago
  I don't think you have to be a customer to put in a complaint about their advertising.

DominikPeters 6y ago

You're getting lots of replies from (I presume) Americans, who are used to much scammier business behavior than what I know from Germany and you describe in Australia. One related example is the pervasive practice in America of displaying a price without fees (like "resort fees" for hotels that can be +50%) and of course taxes, with the actual price only becoming apparent after additional effort is invested in the checkout process.

Mandatum 6y ago
True, my views are non-American. For example when I go to a convenience store, I pay the price listed on the item. I don't have to do math in my head that's +x% sales or state tax. That type of practice just isn't acceptable anywhere else.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  > I don't have to do math in my head that's +x% sales or state tax. That type of practice just isn't acceptable anywhere else. Oblig: sales/retail taxes in the US vary city-by-city. While just like the rest of the world: US companies put their MSRP on products - but it would be unfair to expect retailers to charge the MSRP and eat the tax themselves because some areas have zero sales tax but others have a 10% tax. That's bigger than the profit-margin on many items sold at retail - and the simplest solution is just to have everything understand that the price on a box is the pre-local-tax price. And everyone (most people? or just most people on HN...) know roughly what their local sales tax rates are anyway (mine's around 9%) and as everyone pays by card having exact change isn't an issue.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    > but it would be unfair to expect retailers to charge the MSRP and eat the tax themselves because some areas have zero sales tax but others have a 10% tax. I disagree. If you want to sell something to a market then you should tailor your product to that market. That means doing some basic research about what the local taxes and laws are.

dmingod666 6y ago

Look, if the "Annual" in the name is not clue enough for the person. They are just paying tax for not being able to read. This is not 75th page on the user agreement, it's the first word in the product name he is trying to buy.

hoektoe 6y ago

I also initially thought I was in the wrong with the monthly but yearly. Thanks for screenshots

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

maccard 6y ago

I'm not an american apologist by any means, and it is a dark pattern, but it is very clear at point of payment what you're paying, and what period it's for. The drop-down unexpanded clearly says "Annual Plan, paid monthly". Yes it's a bait and switch, and adobe deserve to be called out on the bait and switch but thats not what this thread is about, it's about someone signing up to (clear at time of purchase) annual billing and wanting to cancel early.