26 ms·

Give me a break. There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. It's just a bunch of trolls on summer vacation. They are doing it because they don't really

Give me a break. There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. It's just a bunch of trolls on summer vacation. They are doing it because they don't really care to consider consequences when they choose to do something. Mystery solved by Occam's Razor. If you didn't know that lots of people like to do mean, pointless things all day for no reason, then welcome to 4chan, you may or may not enjoy your stay.

Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
I thought the actions of anonymous did have ideals. They were protecting free speech through disobedience. I've seen 4 chan. Its no more than the corner teenagers playing around. They may once in a while break a window, or inconvenience some person, but they do not go to steal banks, or hit a police officer. All that is metaphors obviously, perhaps imperfect metaphors. All I am saying is that I, we, do not know who or what Lulsecs is. Anonymous is everyone. You can apparently just enlist your computer towards some action. Lulzsecs is who? Considering what happened to wikileaks why is there no probability, though slight, that it may be some dirty trick? For example, anonymous is everyone right? Yet this guy who has been arrested, the "lulzsec mastermind", is apparently someone who has connections with anonymous. Moreover, since lulzec appears to logically have no motive to take such a grave risk, as shown by someone who just got arrested individual and may possibly rot in jail, but many groups have an interest to get rid of anonymous, thus would want to blur the lines and sway the public opinion, I think there is at least some probability that they have been either corrupted or are affiliated. I'd rather keep an open mind. We'll probably learn much more once this Lulzsec guy goes to trial, hopefully here in Britain, rather than extradited to some extrajurisdictional American prison, or offered a job in some company.
- mquander 15y ago
  - 4channers have been sitting around DDOSing and defacing websites recreationally for years. The only difference here is that the websites are big organizations instead of some poor dude's message board or personal site, and that might seem like a big difference to you, but I don't think it seems like a big difference to the folks involved. - I don't know what the mystery is here about "who or what Lulzsec is" or about "Anonymous is everyone." It's a bunch of teenagers on IRC, not a shadowy order of the shadows. It's pretty much the same guys every time, with people popping in and out. - What does this have to do with Wikileaks, even tangentially? The fact that it's on a computer and the government doesn't like it? - It's surprising that LulzSec has "connections" with Anonymous? The name of their group is "LulzSec" and their Twitter mascot is the 4chan monocle guy! Where did you think they came from, thin air? This whole thing looks so completely ordinary to me that I don't see any reason to postulate foul play.
BCM43 15y ago
Mystery solved by Occam's Razor. Why do people insist on saying this? Yes, it might be the most likely reason, but Occam's Razor is not a law. It's more of a saying. Why are people repeating it as if it is always true?
- mquander 15y ago
  I'm using it as a shorthand for: "Here is a perfectly reasonable explanation that fits the facts. The other given explanation requires the conjunction of multiple unlikely things and I see no evidence favoring it. I believe the other explanation is sufficiently unlikely that there's not much point speculating about it."
klenwell 15y ago
There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. That's the impression I have of a lot of contemporary political and business interests: "There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. It's just business." Some do it for the lulz. Some do it for the bottom line. LulzSec's tactics may be callous or juvenile, but they also somehow see a fitting expression for some of the inchoate disenchantment that I feel. When I pause to consider that I'm doing pretty well, all things considered, I can imagine the deeper chord they strike with others.
- trotsky 15y ago
  but they also somehow see a fitting expression for some of the inchoate disenchantment that I feel. I've been curious about this feeling as it certainly seems to me that you're not alone. What is it that they've done that makes them hit a chord with you? What I see when I look at lulzsec is mostly behvior that hurts a random collection of common people - like dropping emails, hashes, personal info of people who just happened to be unlucky enough to make an account with one of their many targets. Or DDOS on small indie software developers to prevent their customers from playing their games for a bit. Are you disenchanted with gamers and people who sign up for a book forum and such? I totally understand the appeal of the Anonymous DDOS's and HB Gary hack for example, so the whole thing isn't lost on me. But I just find lulzsec idiotic and grating.
  - mquander 15y ago
    I think that if there's an overriding principle behind it, you could say the principle is this: The world is full of crazy laws and arbitrary rules which are frequently both boring and harmful. The only reasonable laws are ones that are purposeful and enforceable. If a law is stupid or if you can't enforce the law, we will break it at our whimsy, and if you don't like it, then you're the one that should change somehow, because anyone else could and probably should go break it too. You could say that this is the grow-a-thicker-skin Internet philosophy. It's an idea that is appealing if you're young, moderately intelligent and computer-savvy, because your life has probably been filled with really stupid rules that are totally pointless and/or completely unenforceable, and you have no idea how to fix it, and you have probably never been on the other end of things.

Andrew_Quentin 15y ago

I thought the actions of anonymous did have ideals. They were protecting free speech through disobedience. I've seen 4 chan. Its no more than the corner teenagers playing around. They may once in a while break a window, or inconvenience some person, but they do not go to steal banks, or hit a police officer. All that is metaphors obviously, perhaps imperfect metaphors. All I am saying is that I, we, do not know who or what Lulsecs is. Anonymous is everyone. You can apparently just enlist your computer towards some action. Lulzsecs is who? Considering what happened to wikileaks why is there no probability, though slight, that it may be some dirty trick? For example, anonymous is everyone right? Yet this guy who has been arrested, the "lulzsec mastermind", is apparently someone who has connections with anonymous. Moreover, since lulzec appears to logically have no motive to take such a grave risk, as shown by someone who just got arrested individual and may possibly rot in jail, but many groups have an interest to get rid of anonymous, thus would want to blur the lines and sway the public opinion, I think there is at least some probability that they have been either corrupted or are affiliated. I'd rather keep an open mind. We'll probably learn much more once this Lulzsec guy goes to trial, hopefully here in Britain, rather than extradited to some extrajurisdictional American prison, or offered a job in some company.

mquander 15y ago
- 4channers have been sitting around DDOSing and defacing websites recreationally for years. The only difference here is that the websites are big organizations instead of some poor dude's message board or personal site, and that might seem like a big difference to you, but I don't think it seems like a big difference to the folks involved. - I don't know what the mystery is here about "who or what Lulzsec is" or about "Anonymous is everyone." It's a bunch of teenagers on IRC, not a shadowy order of the shadows. It's pretty much the same guys every time, with people popping in and out. - What does this have to do with Wikileaks, even tangentially? The fact that it's on a computer and the government doesn't like it? - It's surprising that LulzSec has "connections" with Anonymous? The name of their group is "LulzSec" and their Twitter mascot is the 4chan monocle guy! Where did you think they came from, thin air? This whole thing looks so completely ordinary to me that I don't see any reason to postulate foul play.

BCM43 15y ago

Mystery solved by Occam's Razor. Why do people insist on saying this? Yes, it might be the most likely reason, but Occam's Razor is not a law. It's more of a saying. Why are people repeating it as if it is always true?

mquander 15y ago
I'm using it as a shorthand for: "Here is a perfectly reasonable explanation that fits the facts. The other given explanation requires the conjunction of multiple unlikely things and I see no evidence favoring it. I believe the other explanation is sufficiently unlikely that there's not much point speculating about it."

klenwell 15y ago

There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. That's the impression I have of a lot of contemporary political and business interests: "There are no ideals, and it's not a conspiracy. It's just business." Some do it for the lulz. Some do it for the bottom line. LulzSec's tactics may be callous or juvenile, but they also somehow see a fitting expression for some of the inchoate disenchantment that I feel. When I pause to consider that I'm doing pretty well, all things considered, I can imagine the deeper chord they strike with others.

trotsky 15y ago
but they also somehow see a fitting expression for some of the inchoate disenchantment that I feel. I've been curious about this feeling as it certainly seems to me that you're not alone. What is it that they've done that makes them hit a chord with you? What I see when I look at lulzsec is mostly behvior that hurts a random collection of common people - like dropping emails, hashes, personal info of people who just happened to be unlucky enough to make an account with one of their many targets. Or DDOS on small indie software developers to prevent their customers from playing their games for a bit. Are you disenchanted with gamers and people who sign up for a book forum and such? I totally understand the appeal of the Anonymous DDOS's and HB Gary hack for example, so the whole thing isn't lost on me. But I just find lulzsec idiotic and grating.
- mquander 15y ago
  I think that if there's an overriding principle behind it, you could say the principle is this: The world is full of crazy laws and arbitrary rules which are frequently both boring and harmful. The only reasonable laws are ones that are purposeful and enforceable. If a law is stupid or if you can't enforce the law, we will break it at our whimsy, and if you don't like it, then you're the one that should change somehow, because anyone else could and probably should go break it too. You could say that this is the grow-a-thicker-skin Internet philosophy. It's an idea that is appealing if you're young, moderately intelligent and computer-savvy, because your life has probably been filled with really stupid rules that are totally pointless and/or completely unenforceable, and you have no idea how to fix it, and you have probably never been on the other end of things.